My biggest concern: Supply.

[modogrinder]

I'm watching through the Single Player Japan vods, and I am extremely worried about supply. Basically, Daniel is a player who knows what he is doing - and there is absolutely nothing he can do about the crippling supply issues in China, that I can see. In the dev diary on supply, they identified one of the goals of the new system as "It must be possible to see exactly what the bottleneck in your supplies are and give the player possible actions to fix this that are clear". But what I'm seeing here is no way to fix the bottleneck other than "retreat and give up provinces until you're back in supply".

I haven't watched episode 4 yet, but throughout episode 2-3 the main issue was purely supply. Constantly Daniel would say "darn, supply is the biggest killer" and that gets reiterated over and over... and there's just no way to solve this?? No way to play around it other than to simply retreat as he did? He even launched a naval invasion to capture more ports, had naval superiority so escorts should be able to deliver supplies, etc. but none of that seemed to matter. One of the largest penalties you can possibly get, and it just completely brickwalls you because there's apparently no way to get enough supplies to actually press an offensive with large army against large army.

Additionally, in the dev diary it was mentioned that you'd be able to airdrop supplies - can we get an update on this? It's not currently in the game, and I can't tell if it's even planned - in one of the much earlier WWW episodes they answered a question about it and it didn't sound like they were still working on implementing it, it was just a flat, "no, this feature isn't in HoI4".

Basically, I would like the devs to address that their own goal listed in the dev diary doesn't appear to be met. Supply should definitely matter, and if you ignore it completely you should experience difficulties - but experienced players should have ways to increase supply in a meaningful matter so that your superior army isn't stuck retreating from 1918-level Chinese forces in the Republic of China because there's just no possible way to get enough supply for an offensive, as Daniel was.

From what I can tell, the biggest culprit of this is that all infrastructure is completely destroyed if you have any kind of prolonged battle in an area. I feel like that's excessively punishing and makes it incredibly difficult to advance through large countries if they actually put up any kind of fight. Granted, marching through large countries should come with its own difficulties, but it shouldn't be next to impossible for even the most experienced HoI4 player the devs have.

Disclaimer: I haven't had time to watch episode 4 yet, maybe Daniel showed off a way to increase supply enough to launch real offensives. If so, I apologise for wasting everyone's time with this post! But from what I can see in episodes 2-3 it's a major issue with no real solution.

 

[Paglia]

I'm watching through the Single Player Japan vods, and I am extremely worried about supply. Basically, Daniel is a player who knows what he is doing - and there is absolutely nothing he can do about the crippling supply issues in China, that I can see. In the dev diary on supply, they identified one of the goals of the new system as "It must be possible to see exactly what the bottleneck in your supplies are and give the player possible actions to fix this that are clear". But what I'm seeing here is no way to fix the bottleneck other than "retreat and give up provinces until you're back in supply".

I haven't watched episode 4 yet, but throughout episode 2-3 the main issue was purely supply. Constantly Daniel would say "darn, supply is the biggest killer" and that gets reiterated over and over... and there's just no way to solve this?? No way to play around it other than to simply retreat as he did? He even launched a naval invasion to capture more ports, had naval superiority so escorts should be able to deliver supplies, etc. but none of that seemed to matter. One of the largest penalties you can possibly get, and it just completely brickwalls you because there's apparently no way to get enough supplies to actually press an offensive with large army against large army.

Additionally, in the dev diary it was mentioned that you'd be able to airdrop supplies - can we get an update on this? It's not currently in the game, and I can't tell if it's even planned - in one of the much earlier WWW episodes they answered a question about it and it didn't sound like they were still working on implementing it, it was just a flat, "no, this feature isn't in HoI4".

Basically, I would like the devs to address that their own goal listed in the dev diary doesn't appear to be met. Supply should definitely matter, and if you ignore it completely you should experience difficulties - but experienced players should have ways to increase supply in a meaningful matter so that your superior army isn't stuck retreating from 1918-level Chinese forces in the Republic of China because there's just no possible way to get enough supply for an offensive, as Daniel was.

From what I can tell, the biggest culprit of this is that all infrastructure is completely destroyed if you have any kind of prolonged battle in an area. I feel like that's excessively punishing and makes it incredibly difficult to advance through large countries if they actually put up any kind of fight. Granted, marching through large countries should come with its own difficulties, but it shouldn't be next to impossible for even the most experienced HoI4 player the devs have.

Disclaimer: I haven't had time to watch episode 4 yet, maybe Daniel showed off a way to increase supply enough to launch real offensives. If so, I apologise for wasting everyone's time with this post! But from what I can see in episodes 2-3 it's a major issue with no real solution.

The game is designed to be played over the course of 10 years... not 10 months. So supply penalties are part of the game and you have to deal with them, the same as you deal with terrain, techs and al.

In HoI3, you could wipe out China in less than 6 months. So it's honestly a good thing that the game now slow things down. Weak balance in Pacific/China was one of the main flaws of HoI3.

 

[blue_yonder]

"It must be possible to see exactly what the bottleneck in your supplies are and give the player possible actions to fix this that are clear".

But what I'm seeing here is no way to fix the bottleneck other than "retreat and give up provinces until you're back in supply".

What's unclear about that fixative action?

 

[Sloeberjong]

Soooo, problems that the Japanse encountered in real life are a problem for you? It seems pretty good, especially since Daniel managed to conquer China Anyway despite the problems.

I'd say supply isn't tough enough

 

[Denkt]

You can deal with the supply issue in several ways:

• Improve the infrastructure
• Improve the ports or build new ones closer to the action
• Give your divisions logistical companies
• Use a field marshal with the Logistics Wizard trait
• Move away less important divisions from the front
• Some doctrines can also reduce your need for supply

I'd say supply isn't tough enough

I would say china is maybe a bit on the weaker side but I guess the developers want it that way otherwise Japan may not have a chance at all to win against the USA later on.

 

[potski]

Additionally, in the dev diary it was mentioned that you'd be able to airdrop supplies - can we get an update on this? It's not currently in the game, and I can't tell if it's even planned - in one of the much earlier WWW episodes they answered a question about it and it didn't sound like they were still working on implementing it, it was just a flat, "no, this feature isn't in HoI4".

Basically, I would like the devs to address that their own goal listed in the dev diary doesn't appear to be met.

They did already address it, in the video and in the forum:

Ran out of time to code it. We will likely add it at some point in the future after release.

There is a search function in the forum, and it allows you to search just in developer posts. It's not hard to find that post.

On your general point, Daniel started the war in the WWW as early as possible in 1936, at the request of those watching the live streaming. He had no time to do any preparations for the supply problems he might experience.

 

[modogrinder]

The game is designed to be played over the course of 10 years... not 10 months. So supply penalties are part of the game and you have to deal with them, the same as you deal with terrain, techs and al.

In HoI3, you could wipe out China in less than 6 months. So it's honestly a good thing that the game now slow things down. Weak balance in Pacific/China was one of the main flaws of HoI3.

The thing is, every nation played by a player wipes out their neighboring countries far faster than they did IRL (especially when you're, y'know, playing against AI). It wasn't just Japan that could conquer China in the first year, so it's not like there was a specific imbalance in Asian power. Japan conquers China quickly in other HoI games because all nations conquer more quickly.

What's unclear about that fixative action?

Okay, that's a pretty clear action to take, but I wouldn't call it a "fix". Supply should be a system that you work to manage your offensives, not a system that completely prevents you from making offensives for ages.

Soooo, problems that the Japanse encountered in real life are a problem for you? It seems pretty good, especially since Daniel managed to conquer China Anyway despite the problems.

Yes, I understand that Japan encountered this problem IRL - but this game is specifically not about IRL. You don't play Japan vs. AI to not conquer China. You don't play Germany to lose to the Soviet Union. The whole point of the game is that with superior leadership you can fix the problems that they ran into in real life and conquer more than they actually did, but there's no superior leadership that gets around supply bogging you down for years in China - meanwhile, Germany still gets to expand unrealistically fast if they want, surrounded by small countries that don't have supply issues.

 

[Vidkjaer]

Besides Daniel played it wrong.... His massive pushing all the time resulted in massive attrition of equipment - just like in the German play. The right way to do it, like Japan IRL did, is to take ports and work from there. Not a massive push through mountains. Granted it did work, but at a high cost.

HOI3 had bonuses for holding certain provinces. In HOI3 it therefore gave the player an advantage to follow the "capture coast" strategy, which is more fun IMO.
Nothing on strategic bonuses for provinces in HOI4, but i still hope for it...

 

[Denkt]

Infrastructure get damaged then you capture provinces, if you stop your advances and dig in while repairing and maybe even build new levels of Infrastructure you should not have that much trouble with supply.

 

[electriccat]

The other big thing to remember from the WWW is when Daniel looks at his production screens to see the amount of infra that is getting rebuilt. There is an aspect of him playing super agro for the stream that is causing a lot of his supply issues. Keeping a steady stream of convoys being built and keeping up on logistics division research is going to be a major tipping point.

 

[JerkyJerry]

"My biggest concern: Supply"

Good! I'd say you're onto something!

"My logisticians are a humorless lot ... they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay."
- Alexander

"Leaders win through logistics. Vision, sure. Strategy, yes. But when you go to war, you need to have both toilet paper and bullets at the right place at the right time. In other words, you must win through superior logistics."
- Tom Peters - Rule #3: Leadership Is Confusing As Hell, Fast Company, March 2001

"The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…"
- Sun Tzu

"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
- Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980

"Gentlemen, the officer who doesn't know his communications and supply as well as his tactics is totally useless."
- Gen. George S. Patton, USA

 

[Denkt]

Also worth mention how many convoys Daniel lost to submarines.

 

[lekim]

I'm watching through the Single Player Japan vods, and I am extremely worried about supply. Basically, Daniel is a player who knows what he is doing - and there is absolutely nothing he can do about the crippling supply issues in China, that I can see. In the dev diary on supply, they identified one of the goals of the new system as "It must be possible to see exactly what the bottleneck in your supplies are and give the player possible actions to fix this that are clear". But what I'm seeing here is no way to fix the bottleneck other than "retreat and give up provinces until you're back in supply".

I haven't watched episode 4 yet, but throughout episode 2-3 the main issue was purely supply. Constantly Daniel would say "darn, supply is the biggest killer" and that gets reiterated over and over... and there's just no way to solve this?? No way to play around it other than to simply retreat as he did? He even launched a naval invasion to capture more ports, had naval superiority so escorts should be able to deliver supplies, etc. but none of that seemed to matter. One of the largest penalties you can possibly get, and it just completely brickwalls you because there's apparently no way to get enough supplies to actually press an offensive with large army against large army.

Additionally, in the dev diary it was mentioned that you'd be able to airdrop supplies - can we get an update on this? It's not currently in the game, and I can't tell if it's even planned - in one of the much earlier WWW episodes they answered a question about it and it didn't sound like they were still working on implementing it, it was just a flat, "no, this feature isn't in HoI4".

Basically, I would like the devs to address that their own goal listed in the dev diary doesn't appear to be met. Supply should definitely matter, and if you ignore it completely you should experience difficulties - but experienced players should have ways to increase supply in a meaningful matter so that your superior army isn't stuck retreating from 1918-level Chinese forces in the Republic of China because there's just no possible way to get enough supply for an offensive, as Daniel was.

From what I can tell, the biggest culprit of this is that all infrastructure is completely destroyed if you have any kind of prolonged battle in an area. I feel like that's excessively punishing and makes it incredibly difficult to advance through large countries if they actually put up any kind of fight. Granted, marching through large countries should come with its own difficulties, but it shouldn't be next to impossible for even the most experienced HoI4 player the devs have.

Disclaimer: I haven't had time to watch episode 4 yet, maybe Daniel showed off a way to increase supply enough to launch real offensives. If so, I apologise for wasting everyone's time with this post! But from what I can see in episodes 2-3 it's a major issue with no real solution.

Actually supply system looks pretty good in HoI4 and it even mirrors the actions of allies in France where they had to stop the advances or sometimes even retreat to keep their troop in supply.

 

[Invictus5966]

Also worth mention how many convoys Daniel lost to submarines.

That wasn't until he attacked the USA after China.

But to the OP Daniel did fix the supply problem and once he did pushed on to victory.

 

[Wilbry]

Bear in mind all provinces which have had their infrastructure ruined had two things in commmon:

1. Low initial infra levels
2. Heavy fighting

The same thing happened in the middle east on the initial playthrough.

Also consider that supply congestion and damaged infra were constant concerns during the entire liberation of France. France had the second highest infra levels in Europe next to Germany.

So, in conclusion,
It seems to me it is a reasonable game effect giving reaonable penalties.

 

[Paglia]

The thing is, every nation played by a player wipes out their neighboring countries far faster than they did IRL (especially when you're, y'know, playing against AI). It wasn't just Japan that could conquer China in the first year, so it's not like there was a specific imbalance in Asian power. Japan conquers China quickly in other HoI games because all nations conquer more quickly.

It's worst in China, because of the consequences (JAP get's free time very early with everything it has).

 

[gamedude]

The thing is, every nation played by a player wipes out their neighboring countries far faster than they did IRL (especially when you're, y'know, playing against AI). It wasn't just Japan that could conquer China in the first year, so it's not like there was a specific imbalance in Asian power. Japan conquers China quickly in other HoI games because all nations conquer more quickly.



Okay, that's a pretty clear action to take, but I wouldn't call it a "fix". Supply should be a system that you work to manage your offensives, not a system that completely prevents you from making offensives for ages.



Yes, I understand that Japan encountered this problem IRL - but this game is specifically not about IRL. You don't play Japan vs. AI to not conquer China. You don't play Germany to lose to the Soviet Union. The whole point of the game is that with superior leadership you can fix the problems that they ran into in real life and conquer more than they actually did, but there's no superior leadership that gets around supply bogging you down for years in China - meanwhile, Germany still gets to expand unrealistically fast if they want, surrounded by small countries that don't have supply issues.

1. All country conquered everything faster because HOI 3 was unbalaned as fuck.

2. You can do an offensive any time you want, but do you want to suffer losing people because you can't feed them or repair whatever vehicle you attack with? Your choice.

3. This is one of those War Games and one of the principles of HOI is to simulate real life combat at a nation-wide scale. This game is to stimulate your What-ifs scenarios. However YOU CANT 100% SUPPLY 4 MILLION~ MILITARY TROOPS IN GOD DAMN SOVIET UNION, do you know why Germany couldn't do it? Overextension and deep into soviet union. It was quite difficult to drive over mud and at long distances while Soviet Air-force were perhaps strafing you(Luftwaffe was overextended and simply couldn't do much about it, leading to suffer losses).

 

[jcd000]

@gamedude, add the sparse train lines in Russia of the era and the little problem horses face in the Soviet winter while you are at it.
Afaik the major supply problem was caused due to the imposibility of supplying the front via trains, since there were not nearly enough lines.
So to the OP, yes, no trains (= low infra) means big time headaches for army pushes and this is WAD.


EDIT
not gonna talk about oil here, but this is *my* biggest concern

 

[jockedahl]

I think the supply system looks amazing as a core feature. I'm sure the balance will be tweaked over time as the game develops in patches and feedback comes in.

 

[modogrinder]

Fine, fine, I guess everyone is all for supply being a major obstacle. I guess I'm just too used to HoI2.