My Armenian Miaphysist Kingdom being revoke-spammed by the emperor

[mandreu1983]

Heya

I have played a game as the Duke of Trebizond within ERE, and things went smooth, as once you can beat the first jihads over Anatolia and Greece, ERE usually has the upper-hand if you help it correctly, I didnt get to fight the mongols yet though.

To spice it up a bit I decided to restart my game with the new challenge of making my demesne armenian and miaphysist. I have around 20 counties, 12 for myself rest for my dynasty members. I formed Georgian kingdom.

For now nothing turned armenian, I guess I need to be independent if I want counties to switch to my culture, but miaphycism spreads, especially due to my vassal's chancellors (epic coptic pope is epic).

I am now facing a huge problem : each time there is a new emperor he spams revokations of my titles. Each new porphyrobastard revokes 2 of my duchies and gives it to other people who then have voting rights in my elective monarchy as they are de jure part of my georgian kingdom. I'll have to declare independence at some point. My gamey strategy is to create duchies that I know will be revoked, keeping them homogenous, with myself holding these counties so it doesnt pass out of the realm in a succession. I also try to get back my duchies if I still have the claim on it, but now due to CA I cant, so I must conquer some Holy Wars territory to get these precious revokable titles, if I dont have any ducal title left, the emperor revokes my kingdom which means game-over.

So my questions are :
- has anybody around here succeeded into such a mission of changing the religion/culture of an empire from within, how did he achieve that?
- is it possible to kick a strong ERE with a demesne + vassals of around 20 counties and how?
- after my upcoming conquest of Azeirbadjan I will border the Ilkhanate, how strong are Mongols once they have formed their empire? What do you need to beat them? Can an independant 20 counties Georgia resist them?
- Finally, is it possible to change you demesne culture to armenian, if you are yourself armenian, your counts too, but not the emperor? For now it seems like culture from my kingdom doesnt change to greek, but doesnt change to armenian neither.
- Am I too ambitious when thinking an armenian miaphyist kingdom is doable?

Thanks for replies.

Happy new year.

Your faithful reader,

Marcus.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

If you want to be gamey, you can apparently just not respond to the emperor's revoke request. I know it is annoying that this happens all the time. Nobody should be able to revoke titles over religion till they're at high crown authority imo.

Something that can help is to keep a high diplomacy chancellor in Constantinople. You could also try educating or matri-marrying his younger sons and try to get them on the throne. Anything you can do to raise relation score. Try to educate your heir to have the same traits as the next emperor.

 

[Comradebot]

You can cause cultures to flip from within the empire, but its more difficult than if you're independent.


And you're not too ambitious at all to think that an Armenian, Miaphyiste Kingdom is impossible... the only problem is, if you want to have any long term success, you're going to almost have to break free of the Empire. If you're in the Empire, and as the most powerful vassal you're a different culture and religion, then you're a decent threat to either force that culture and religion on the entire empire or to declare independence and take a sizable chunk of the empire with you when you leave. Perhaps you can guarantee every ruler of yours is a 20+ diplomacy character, but that can be better said than done, and still won't guarantee the emperor's love (especially if he/she is zealous).

As for the Mongols... yeah, that's a tough situation. I once kept Armenia independent and Miaphysite, but only because I was a powerful Nubian Kingdom and actively protected them against the Ilkhanate. If you can field about 60k guys (depending on how strong the Ilkhanate is, could be far more or far less), keep em' on boats and swarm the Mongol stacks when they're close enough to the coast you can safely retreat to the ships after squishing them. Its how I beat them with Nubia, along with maintaining an alliance with the Byzantine Empire at all times.

 

[mandreu1983]

Argh. I am far from 60k troops right now. I can take 4000 troops at best. There is just no way I could resist Mongols.

For now I was on a money strategy, building cities on coasts on any available slot, or bishoprics in mainland, thinking that would prepare the future.
I have upgraded economic building to the best in all territory, and I am only starting to build military buildings since 2-3 years.
I also gave vassals fully economically improved territories so theorically they should buy military building on their own.

 

[vitek69]

Actually the problem is not so much religion but the fact that the Emperor can revoke ducal titles at no penalty (prestige or opinion). Him being Miaphyist is only making the Emperor regard him more as a threat.

Argh. I am far from 60k troops right now. I can take 4000 troops at best. There is just no way I could resist Mongols.

For now I was on a money strategy, building cities on coasts on any available slot, or bishoprics in mainland, thinking that would prepare the future.
I have upgraded economic building to the best in all territory, and I am only starting to build military buildings since 2-3 years.
I also gave vassals fully economically improved territories so theorically they should buy military building on their own.

You can field 4 000 troops?? That's really few... The chance of beating the emperor with that is...slim. Unless of course you can raise much more from your vassals or you can afford a large number of mercenaries.

 

[Battle bunny]

20 counties and only 4000 troops? Even with the piss-poor provinces in Armenia, you're doing something wrong there.

Building bishoprics wasn't a good idea, as they're so unreliable and not exactly great. You should build cities to improve your economy and castles if you want to become a military powerhouse. Powergamers will tell you that building only cities is the way to go.

Do what ZechsMerquise73 said. Also, ride the first powerful separatist wave you come across. If, say, critical duchies like Nicaea, Samos, Turnovo etc. are about to declare separatist war, join the faction - the Empire can be really weak if it loses these territories.

Resisting the Mongols, unless you are a superpower, is completely impossible. It is also generally impossible even if you are a superpower. Do what I always do and delete the big doomstack after the Ilkhanate has already conquered the small-time trash in the east and has a strong foothold on the map.

 

[SRM]

Alternatively, use events to spawn a doomstack of your own, then delete it as soon as you've knocked out the Horde doomstack.

 

[mandreu1983]

This Mongols doomstack thing is ridiculous.
So AI can never beat Mongols right? Even HRE? The doomstack should disappear at some point imo, something like 100 years after appearing in the map, which leaves time for conquering a huge empire.
So currently, if you start in Ireland in 1066, 200 years later Mongols are at your border? Which AI can stop them then?

I probably fucked up saying I have 4000 troops, I think it is more like 6000 from my demesne, an equal amount from vassals, plus, as I make 100 gold/month, 6 groups of merceneraries so 21000 mercenaries, this makes a grand total of 33000 if I save the 1800 gold to pay for it at start.

 

[DC123456789]

This Mongols doomstack thing is ridiculous.
So AI can never beat Mongols right? Even HRE? The doomstack should disappear at some point imo, something like 100 years after appearing in the map, which leaves time for conquering a huge empire.
So currently, if you start in Ireland in 1066, 200 years later Mongols are at your border? Which AI can stop them then?

I probably fucked up saying I have 4000 troops, I think it is more like 6000 from my demesne, an equal amount from vassals, plus, as I make 100 gold/month, 6 groups of merceneraries so 21000 mercenaries, this makes a grand total of 33000 if I save the 1800 gold to pay for it at start.

The HRE usually stops them (more like they're too afraid to attack), so Western Europe is usually safe (as in OTL). The Byzantines can sometimes stop them, if they've blobbed big enough. The Fatimids/Egypt, too, unless they've collapsed into civil war or something.

 

[liamgamer55]

The byzantine emperor is set up to very much dislike any kingdoms in their empire under almost any conditions or so it would seem based on my gameplay experience. Certainly being a different dynasty, a different culture and a different religion is going to make the emperor all but hate you (especially if you're his largest vassal). He has to balance the power of his vassals to stay in charge and since you're a different religion to him he assumes you want his crown.

 

[A_Dane]

tbh, I'd imagine being an Armenian Miasphysist would be rather.. difficult.
Tried to get a game going where I would form Bulgaria, that turned out to be damn near impossible, as the emperor kept revoking my duchies as soon as I got them.

 

[liamgamer55]

tbh, I'd imagine being an Armenian Miasphysist would be rather.. difficult.
Tried to get a game going where I would form Bulgaria, that turned out to be damn near impossible, as the emperor kept revoking my duchies as soon as I got them.

Being anything that isn't greek orthadox when the empire is going well (which it does for 50+% of games) is difficult. It requires lots of wheeling and dealing just to keep your duchy, let alone expand. One tacting you can use is is that the emperor generally doesn't care too much about counties so you're probably better off being a 7 county count than a 4 county double duke/duke. I'd try going for breeding for max stewardship and focusing on gaining power by gaining demesne very slowly and carefully when the timing is right. Attempting to rapidly expand while you have low diplomacy and the emperor is a cynical posessed cruel paranoid megalomaniac probably isn't the wisest idea. He'll just very quickly revoke your counties and or duchies.

 

[A_Dane]

Being anything that isn't greek orthadox when the empire is going well (which it does for 50+% of games) is difficult. It requires lots of wheeling and dealing just to keep your duchy, let alone expand. One tacting you can use is is that the emperor generally doesn't care too much about counties so you're probably better off being a 7 county count than a 4 county double duke/duke.

Yes but it becomes kinda difficult to form Bulgaria under those circumstances

The one time I did manage to get it rolling, the ERE was overrun by the Fatimids, taking me down with them -.-

I havn't played too much in the ERE, but I have a feeling that the current position the emperor sits in, being able to revoke duchies pretty much at will, is one of the reasons it stays so stable for most of my games..

 

[liamgamer55]

Yes but it becomes kinda difficult to form Bulgaria under those circumstances

You can, you just need to become emperor (without letting the empire get overrun by muslims or any other external threat) first.

No one said the byzantine empire was going to be easy mode, in fact it's one of the most difficult regions to play in the game no matter what you are in it. It has both extremely hard to deal with internal and external threats no matter whether you're emperor, duke or an armenian miaphysite count. Hence why I and others probably like playing it. When I feel like losing the game within 50 years of starting it half the time.

 

[A_Dane]

Yeah probably gonna give it a proper try sometime soon, but watching the ERE just randomly redistribute my titles just put me off playing in the area for a long time

 

[liamgamer55]

Yeah probably gonna give it a proper try sometime soon, but watching the ERE just randomly redistribute my titles just put me off playing in the area for a long time

The ERE is meant to be both arbitrary and bureacratic. I think it models how it works rather well in that respect. Perhaps if you want to succeed you're going to need to play an easier character in it, either the emperor or someone from the same dynasty as him. Otherwise you're just going to need to get better at the game. At least you have a goal to look forward to.

 

[A_Dane]

Oh I have no difficulty gaining power within the empire, the problem is that I wanted to create the kingdom of Bulgaria within the empire and play on from there - however, that is quite hard to achieve when the emperor removes your duchies very soon after you get them. It's doable, but not something I want to spend my time on tbh, thinking of just trying a Palaeologus game and see where it goes

 

[liamgamer55]

Oh I have no difficulty gaining power within the empire, the problem is that I wanted to create the kingdom of Bulgaria within the empire and play on from there - however, that is quite hard to achieve when the emperor removes your duchies very soon after you get them. It's doable, but not something I want to spend my time on tbh, thinking of just trying a Palaeologus game and see where it goes

Well clearly, if you can't do what you want to do then you're not all that powerful are you. Become emperor and then you won't have a problem . Alternatively, if you want to become king of bulgaria before becoming emperor, then it's doable. It just might be a lot more difficult. You may need to spread your dynasty throughout the realm a lot, get them to ally with you a lot and constantly make factions keeping the emperor weak and content. That sounds like it may actually be 5x harder though.

 

[A_Dane]

Havn't tried it with any non-bulgarian character actually, gonna look into if the Emperor just hates the bulgarians

Been a couple of months now, and well truth be told, it's quite hard to achieve much if you're forced to be a count level vassal, even if you have 7 counties, and are of a different culture than 95 % of the other vassals One of the more difficult undetakings I have done atleast

 

[Arnulfing]

Does the ERE still revoke your titles even when his relationship with you is positive?

I only have experience with the HRE, where I last played a Dutch Cathar (female) duchess of Flanders who eventually became queen of Frisia. She started out as a countess in Zeeland, and took the titles of Duke of Flanders and Holland by force. Both had become independant earlier, which ment the emperor had strong claims on both. With four maluses (female, foreign, heretic, claimant) his relation was always negative, but he wouldn't actually start (spam-)revoking until around -35. His heir inherited weak claims to both duchies and would also start revoking around -30 to -35.

I kept it above that by marriage, education, gifts and diplomacy by stationing my chancellor on the capitol province to increase relations. I also joined his wars (relationship bonus) and refrained from joining factions aimed against the emperor (side-stepping maluses).

Stationing your chancellor there means you can't fabricate claims, but at least it's better than having to deal with your liege either revoking titles or declaring war on you. The third option, igoring the demand until he dies, is too gamey for my taste.

I'm not sure of this applies to your situation, but it might be worth a shot. This does require keeping a keen eye on the situation, though - sometimes his relationship with you can drop suddenly because of other events. Also bear in mind that marrying and being educated by Greek characters will have an important influence on the culture of your offspring, your chancellor increasing relations is random and can also backfire, and gifting an emperor is never cheap...