HOI3 has 10x the number of provinces of HOI2, furthermore you could only land on "coastal" provinces in HOI2 whereas you can land on ANY province in HOI3. So in reality there's 20-30x more landing spots in HOI3 compared to HOI2. Really if you don't have MP experience don't talk about other players skill level.
My anti wish list
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HOI3 has 10x the number of provinces of HOI2, furthermore you could only land on "coastal" provinces in HOI2 whereas you can land on ANY province in HOI3. So in reality there's 20-30x more landing spots in HOI3 compared to HOI2. Really if you don't have MP experience don't talk about other players skill level.
Ninja landings aren't just an MP issue in HoI3, I think it's just the case that Phadishar was talking from a HoI1-2 perspective, and landings in HoI3 were a whole different kettle of fish. That said, the general principle of sorting out the landings still applies to HoI1 and 2, even if they were much easier to defend against because of the far fewer available landing zones.
Honestly no version did it totally right, and blowing ports with rockets was done profusely by many german players in MP IIRC.
Not that ports shouldn´t be important, but unloading supplies should be possible in provinces with no ports, just in very small amounts. So anything else than infantry would have a very hard time, as they should.
Not that ports shouldn´t be important, but unloading supplies should be possible in provinces with no ports, just in very small amounts. So anything else than infantry would have a very hard time, as they should.
I can cover the entire Atlantic Wall with tons of divisions as Germany. That's not the problem.
The problem is that the AI is too easy to ninja because human players can execute amphibious assaults on the spur of the moment. Sea Lion is shockingly easy to to execute with little prep or warning. Overlord is also easy to execute without any prep.
Just because its balanced against the ai, doesn't mean its actually balanced imo. You could say I can cover the entire Atlantic wall. But if the ai just landed a corp of marines on a port, you'd lose. And yes, the ai is horrible at guarding against sealion.
I don't cover every province, just the ports (and with the larger ones the adjacent provinces) with MIL stacks, while the armored reserve force sits away from Britain's RADAR, but within a 96 hours of any reasonable invasion site. In repeated tests in side-by-side MP, those MIL stacks hold out long enough to get substantial forces in the invasion site to either reinforce them, or just take back the port before enough divisions can be landed to make a difference. Putting at least 4 4xMIL divisions in all ports (additional divisions adjacent in key ports) with the width reduction doctrine place makes it incredibly difficult to take any of the targets, while the cost for the MIL divisions is practically a rounding error in Germany's IC and leadership. And if Germany needs additional manpower for whatever reason, they can be disbanded or upgraded for use on the Eastern Front.
To take those ports with any kind of speed, you need a 5 division stack of MAR/whatever divisions (preferably ARM to get the benefits of penetration) plus some PARA to open an addition axis of attack. That will speed up the attack considerably, but battles still drag out long enough to inflict substantial damage on the port. And every hour that those crappy MIL stacks hold the ports is another hour the panzers get closer to encircling the beachhead.
I guess when I said the Atlantic Wall, I only really meant provinces that are relevant to amphibious invasions in HOI3. There's a lot of real estate in Western Europe that, technically on the coast, is largely unimportant to amphibious operations.
That being said, I would still argue that the one good thing about HOI3 and amphibious operations is that air superiority is vital if the area is actually contested. Sure, you can ninja stuff against the AI, but if there is serious opposition on the ground, air superiority is mandatory to win the battle. I've seen Sea Lion's fail when the RAF bombed the advancing Italian troops to nothing. It works the other way, too. I've seen serious armored counterattacks get turned aside by overwhelming air power on the part of the invader.
In HOI3, the Allied attacker can land in any of 30-50 coastal provinces, and there's no way to defend all of them, but if they can't take a decent port in a few weeks, the invasion is doomed. That means the Axis needs to hold the major ports with a solid garrison (which includes defending the provinces adjacent to the more critical ports), and keep enough reserve forces nearby to counter-attack before the Allies can capture one. That reserve force also prevents an Allied force from attacking a stretch of beach without a decent port, plopping down a series of Level 1 ports into several adjacent provinces, and sending convoys to each of them, because it will still be a few days or weeks until the newly placed ports "repair" up to full capacity, and the amount of troops which can be supported is still fairly low.
The situation is very different from earlier HOI releases, where the number of potential invasion sites was rather limited and defenses could be built up in all of them.
The situation is very different from earlier HOI releases, where the number of potential invasion sites was rather limited and defenses could be built up in all of them.
From my limited SP-experience (as opposed to the probably much richer MP-experience some players possess) the issue with naval invasions in 3 was not about the number of provinces or ports - i think those are pretty decent. Okay, there could be landing-suiability ratings for all coasts, making it easier to land on the beaches of normandy than at the cliff of dover, but i am fully aware, that this would have meant a) 5€ extra for a game coming out one month later and b) possibly UI/map-clutter.
No, the issue is that loading and unloading in ports takes zero time and carries no other penalty (like, say, a ORG-hit), either. It´s like the tanks roll right onto ferries waiting in (tank-)formation at the shore, which go over the sea with perfect navigation against all wind and currents, to land on the other side in exactly the same perfect formation, and everything is timed perfectly, so that when the whole unit is back on land, nobody had to wait for anything or anyone and the whole thing just rolls out again in perfect formation, even if the enemy is already attacking the province and the port is currently being bombed...
The dis-/embarking without ports was carried a big way towards getting fixed in tfh, but still some issues remain with those as well. Like it always takes the same amount of time to do it (right?), no matter what the weather is like or what´s going on on land, in the air or at sea. But the warning an invasion has been started and the delay caused by modeling the process of disembarkment were heading in the right direction.
No, the issue is that loading and unloading in ports takes zero time and carries no other penalty (like, say, a ORG-hit), either. It´s like the tanks roll right onto ferries waiting in (tank-)formation at the shore, which go over the sea with perfect navigation against all wind and currents, to land on the other side in exactly the same perfect formation, and everything is timed perfectly, so that when the whole unit is back on land, nobody had to wait for anything or anyone and the whole thing just rolls out again in perfect formation, even if the enemy is already attacking the province and the port is currently being bombed...
The dis-/embarking without ports was carried a big way towards getting fixed in tfh, but still some issues remain with those as well. Like it always takes the same amount of time to do it (right?), no matter what the weather is like or what´s going on on land, in the air or at sea. But the warning an invasion has been started and the delay caused by modeling the process of disembarkment were heading in the right direction.
If one wants to land, one can, and anywhere provided he has the naval support to accomplish it. Any port defense can be broken.
Normally, one would assume that once a beachhead is achieved, the invader will move inland in an attempt to take over and win the war.
Ninja landings are used for a completely different purpose than conquest: Harrassment. And they are very good for that effect.
All one has to do is land, encircle all nearby units, and then leave. Troops are destroyed before reinforcements can make it. Or, the landing is used to lure troops away from other important areas. Since there is no intention to stay, and the defender has no idea what the intention of the invader is exactly, its pretty overpowered and also unrealistic. A landing of the magnitude that is commonly done in this manner would require a massive amount of support, and rely on a secured beachead, especially if the plan is to later leave that beachead.
Now, combating the AI as Germany and establishing an "atlantic wall" is possible, since its the AI. In Multiplayer, your opponents on the allies will be well prepared to run amok and make whatever landings they desire, and they will.
But the issue isn't whether it can be stopped or not, in SP or MP. Thats irrelevant.
The issue is the current mechanics allow landings and exits from landings with next to no effort or time. The logistics of it aren't properly taken into account, and hopefully HOI4 will correct this.
Normally, one would assume that once a beachhead is achieved, the invader will move inland in an attempt to take over and win the war.
Ninja landings are used for a completely different purpose than conquest: Harrassment. And they are very good for that effect.
All one has to do is land, encircle all nearby units, and then leave. Troops are destroyed before reinforcements can make it. Or, the landing is used to lure troops away from other important areas. Since there is no intention to stay, and the defender has no idea what the intention of the invader is exactly, its pretty overpowered and also unrealistic. A landing of the magnitude that is commonly done in this manner would require a massive amount of support, and rely on a secured beachead, especially if the plan is to later leave that beachead.
Now, combating the AI as Germany and establishing an "atlantic wall" is possible, since its the AI. In Multiplayer, your opponents on the allies will be well prepared to run amok and make whatever landings they desire, and they will.
But the issue isn't whether it can be stopped or not, in SP or MP. Thats irrelevant.
The issue is the current mechanics allow landings and exits from landings with next to no effort or time. The logistics of it aren't properly taken into account, and hopefully HOI4 will correct this.