My 2 cents worth on tech display and fog of war

[unmerged(25696)]

Hello everybody, I have here a proposal that don't talk of BB, RR, culture-shift, AI, or anything, but only of display.

I've always, as everyone AFAIK, enjoyed the fog of war. You hear about victories (or defeat) of foreign powers, but you don't know if it was a skirmish or a huge field battle, or if they lost all of their troops. Fine to me.

But now, the display of the tech, specifically the land and naval techs. Fine too, it let you know if you're more advanced, or late. Easier than before, where only major countries appeared in the logbook (well, that has not changed, still). But I don't find it appropriate that you see the tech level of some remote country while at the same time having absolutely no idea of the size of its army.

So, why don't link the display of the tech level to the existence of diplomatic ties ? Besides, why don't display also their trade & infra tech levels ?

As a base of work, I propose to :

A. Display the land and naval tech level only if :
1) you currently have a RM, a vassalization, a military alliance or a military access,
2) you're neighbours.

B. Display the trade & infra tech level only if :
1) you currently have a RM, a vassalization, a military alliance or a trade agreement,
2) you're neighbours,
3) you have a merchant in CoT owned by them, or they have a merchant in a CoT owned by you.


Finally, it's sometimes interesting to see what their Domestic policies look like, so am I the only one to hope he may one day see their DP in-game ?

 

[Chaingun]

This sounds good, but it would require a major overhaul I think Paradox is not willing to put down, especially since those techs are displayed in many place (country information, map capitals, many places in ledger etc.). Then of course you have the problem of multiplayer, where players between sessions easily can check each other's techs anyway. In short: I nice idea, but I think it is too much work and would but pointless in multiplayer.

 

[unmerged(24442)]

It would also probably be inaccurate in the late game. It's doubtful that the USA was unsure of the land and naval levels of Prussia's forces in the 1800s, even if there was no RM, vassalisation, MA or Alliance.

As to being neighbours, couldn't Russia, for example, just ask it's good buddy France about the technology possessed by it's neighbour, Spain?

 

[unmerged(16181)]

I've always, as everyone AFAIK, enjoyed the fog of war.

Not me---I play without it. (Honestly, I can't stand not knowing anything at all about somebody's army until I declare war on them.)

As a base of work, I propose to :

A. Display the land and naval tech level only if :
1) you currently have a RM, a vassalization, a military alliance or a military access,
2) you're neighbours.

B. Display the trade & infra tech level only if :
1) you currently have a RM, a vassalization, a military alliance or a trade agreement,
2) you're neighbours,
3) you have a merchant in CoT owned by them, or they have a merchant in a CoT owned by you.

I personally wouldn't mind, as long as you could still see the tech levels if you turned off the fog of war. I'm not sure whether this could be implemented before EU3, though....

Finally, it's sometimes interesting to see what their Domestic policies look like, so am I the only one to hope he may one day see their DP in-game ?

No, you're not---I would like that too, particularly in MP.

 

[unmerged(25609)]

Agree with Snin - you find out from friends / neighbours.
Earlier (or for more remote areas), your envoys come back with a mine of information. (like spies, but more polite) Example: send Dutch envoy to ask Japan for Trade Agreement; they refuse. On the voyage, and during his stay, your envoy (and his entourage) are supposed to observe - and report - anything of interest. Land and naval tech, infrastructure, etc. So Dutch and Japanese have no official connection, yet Dutch know something about Japan.

 

[unmerged(17693)]

Agree with Snin - you find out from friends / neighbours.
Earlier (or for more remote areas), your envoys come back with a mine of information. (like spies, but more polite) Example: send Dutch envoy to ask Japan for Trade Agreement; they refuse. On the voyage, and during his stay, your envoy (and his entourage) are supposed to observe - and report - anything of interest. Land and naval tech, infrastructure, etc. So Dutch and Japanese have no official connection, yet Dutch know something about Japan.

so you propose a kind of whiteman value for every country, and when it's good enough, all European countries can see your tech?

 

[unmerged(25696)]

This sounds good, but it would require a major overhaul I think Paradox is not willing to put down, especially since those techs are displayed in many place (country information, map capitals, many places in ledger etc.). Then of course you have the problem of multiplayer, where players between sessions easily can check each other's techs anyway. In short: I nice idea, but I think it is too much work and would but pointless in multiplayer.

Thx, but I don't expect my idea to figure in the next beta, not even the next patch. It would be great for EU3 still. I know, I'm still dreaming...

It would also probably be inaccurate in the late game. It's doubtful that the USA was unsure of the land and naval levels of Prussia's forces in the 1800s, even if there was no RM, vassalisation, MA or Alliance.

As to being neighbours, couldn't Russia, for example, just ask it's good buddy France about the technology possessed by it's neighbour, Spain?

Not necessarily. By that time, every christian nation can have RM (yeah, I know, it seems strange to talk of RM with the USA :rofl: ).

Not me---I play without it. (Honestly, I can't stand not knowing anything at all about somebody's army until I declare war on them.)

I personally wouldn't mind, as long as you could still see the tech levels if you turned off the fog of war. I'm not sure whether this could be implemented before EU3, though....

Maybe I can review my suggestion so that this is possible. I'm not adversed to it, since I based my idea on the FoW.

Agree with Snin - you find out from friends / neighbours.
Earlier (or for more remote areas), your envoys come back with a mine of information. (like spies, but more polite) Example: send Dutch envoy to ask Japan for Trade Agreement; they refuse. On the voyage, and during his stay, your envoy (and his entourage) are supposed to observe - and report - anything of interest. Land and naval tech, infrastructure, etc. So Dutch and Japanese have no official connection, yet Dutch know something about Japan.

Why not ? But it seems a little too easy. We would also need that the AI take advantages of this too.

 

[JaxomCA]

I do not know how much spying was going on during that time period but I can't imagine there was no spying at all. So maybe some kind of spying interface as a subset of the diplomatic options might be a good addition for EU3. Although the information gained that way should be sketchy at best. The diplomatic envoy from the Netherland might bring some information back from Japan, but that information would be many months old when it came back.

 

[unmerged(25609)]

so you propose a kind of whiteman value for every country, and when it's good enough, all European countries can see your tech?

Hmm.. I don't know. I'm not even sure that I understand exactly what you mean - (my inexperience)
whiteman = Navaho development incredibly slow until they've encountered whites, and then it speeds up a bit???
But if Portuguese explorers "discover" ... say Benin, they would notice that the Africans didn't have muskets, or caravels, or cannon ...
and the first exchanges of trade goods would tell them even more. Perhaps it's too much for the Europeans to see the EXACT tech levels, but I think that they would have a good idea.
If the Portuguese then shared their maps/discoveries with others, wouldn't they include that kind of info?
Now, if a conquistador from Benin landed in Oporto ... wouldn't he be able to tell that these Christians were at tech level ...?
Perhaps the objection comes from the fact that the information is TOO precise. You could cluster the tech levels into groups (your display would show their level, give or take a few... or is that too much trouble?)

 

[unmerged(17693)]

Hmm.. I don't know. I'm not even sure that I understand exactly what you mean - (my inexperience)
whiteman = Navaho development incredibly slow until they've encountered whites, and then it speeds up a bit???
But if Portuguese explorers "discover" ... say Benin, they would notice that the Africans didn't have muskets, or caravels, or cannon ...
and the first exchanges of trade goods would tell them even more. Perhaps it's too much for the Europeans to see the EXACT tech levels, but I think that they would have a good idea.
If the Portuguese then shared their maps/discoveries with others, wouldn't they include that kind of info?
Now, if a conquistador from Benin landed in Oporto ... wouldn't he be able to tell that these Christians were at tech level ...?
Perhaps the objection comes from the fact that the information is TOO precise. You could cluster the tech levels into groups (your display would show their level, give or take a few... or is that too much trouble?)

you can try for EU3.....

 

[unmerged(25696)]

Hmm.. I don't know. I'm not even sure that I understand exactly what you mean - (my inexperience)
whiteman = Navaho development incredibly slow until they've encountered whites, and then it speeds up a bit???
But if Portuguese explorers "discover" ... say Benin, they would notice that the Africans didn't have muskets, or caravels, or cannon ...
and the first exchanges of trade goods would tell them even more. Perhaps it's too much for the Europeans to see the EXACT tech levels, but I think that they would have a good idea.
If the Portuguese then shared their maps/discoveries with others, wouldn't they include that kind of info?
Now, if a conquistador from Benin landed in Oporto ... wouldn't he be able to tell that these Christians were at tech level ...?
Perhaps the objection comes from the fact that the information is TOO precise. You could cluster the tech levels into groups (your display would show their level, give or take a few... or is that too much trouble?)

Yes, for the military techs, you could display only the era (Late medieval, Renaissance,...). Even better than displaying the exact level.