Mutimir, Duke of "Rascia" - incorrect title

[Slavicist]

Hello. I have once in the past as a kid been a great fan of history-based video games and especially Paradox'. This has led to the long path with me actually becoming a historian.

I've noticed Paradox was about to remake CK and have been following the news, so I watched a couple of YouTube videos and inquired in general a bit about the game and the recent "Old Gods" expansion, and I've decided to offer some form of minimal assistance for the purpose of greater historicity.

Rashka as a term did not exist prior to the 12th century. Therefore, Prince Mutimir should be Prince of Serbia, rather than Rashka, because such was the term used for his country in contemporary sources, for the most important part the De Administrando Imperio of the Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus. Therefore, the terminology is in a sorts of a reversed chronological order; I can offer some professional literature in support of this (including submit translations from the Serbo-Croatian language) if needed, but this is actually relatively well-known. The Wikipedia article, for example, refers to him thus as Mutimir of Serbia.

 

[SBolshevik]

Hello. I have once in the past as a kid been a great fan of history-based video games and especially Paradox'. This has led to the long path with me actually becoming a historian.

I've noticed Paradox was about to remake CK and have been following the news, so I watched a couple of YouTube videos and inquired in general a bit about the game and the recent "Old Gods" expansion, and I've decided to offer some form of minimal assistance for the purpose of greater historicity.

Rashka as a term did not exist prior to the 12th century. Therefore, Prince Mutimir should be Prince of Serbia, rather than Rashka, because such was the term used for his country in contemporary sources, for the most important part the De Administrando Imperio of the Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus. Therefore, the terminology is in a sorts of a reversed chronological order; I can offer some professional literature in support of this (including submit translations from the Serbo-Croatian language) if needed, but this is actually relatively well-known. The Wikipedia article, for example, refers to him thus as Mutimir of Serbia.

Raška used for convenience. Unless you give him the title King of Serbia, there's no point in making a titular duchy.

 

[Slavicist]

Hello. I have once in the past as a kid been a great fan of history-based video games and especially Paradox'. This has led to the long path with me actually becoming a historian.

I've noticed Paradox was about to remake CK and have been following the news, so I watched a couple of YouTube videos and inquired in general a bit about the game and the recent "Old Gods" expansion, and I've decided to offer some form of minimal assistance for the purpose of greater historicity.

Rashka as a term did not exist prior to the 12th century. Therefore, Prince Mutimir should be Prince of Serbia, rather than Rashka, because such was the term used for his country in contemporary sources, for the most important part the De Administrando Imperio of the Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus. Therefore, the terminology is in a sorts of a reversed chronological order; I can offer some professional literature in support of this (including submit translations from the Serbo-Croatian language) if needed, but this is actually relatively well-known. The Wikipedia article, for example, refers to him thus as Mutimir of Serbia.

But there are also a Duchy of Finland and a Kingdom of Finland. What convenience are you referring to in precise?

 

[Alyiakal]

Register your game and suggest this as a Title issue in Bug Reports.

 

[SBolshevik]

But there are also a Duchy of Finland and a Kingdom of Finland. What convenience are you referring to in precise?

The convenience of not having to make a titular title (and one that can't become de iure, too).

 

[Tuerai]

Register your game and suggest this as a Title issue in Bug Reports.

You have no right to assume someone hasn't registered their game. Icons are turned off by default now for registering new games. Please don't scare people away from the forums for no reason.

 

[SBolshevik]

As a note, it could technically be done by simply making an event like West Francia => France, but there are other places where this should be implemented, (Poland, Finland, Greater Poland and Lesser Poland, etc.) so don't be sure that Paradox will implement it, especially since they haven't bothered to fix huge errors which are a lot more noticeable, like the Estonian namelist, which contains names like Altocumulus and Pivtsay.

 

[Alyiakal]

You have no right to assume someone hasn't registered their game. Icons are turned off by default now for registering new games. Please don't scare people away from the forums for no reason.

Did I accuse someone of not having the game? No. But to post in the Bug Reports section, you need to have the game registered. Therefore, in the interests of providing complete disclosure (i.e. not having someone come back and make unnecessary posts because people decided to be unhelpful) I provided all relevant information.

I have no idea why you are being so confrontational.

EDIT: In order for this not be a waste of a post, I will elaborate that I've seen many "Title Suggestion" posts in Bug Reports; at least I did as of a few patches ago. Paradox is fairly receptive of historical accuracy changes, so you might convince them to change the duchy name, or maybe give it localization based on culture (I'm unsure if this would work, because I don't know if Rashka is already in Serbian).

 

[Wezqu]

But there are also a Duchy of Finland and a Kingdom of Finland. What convenience are you referring to in precise?

Duchy of Finland and Kingdom of Finland are de jure entities in the game they are not titular. If you think the name is wrong make a bug report about it with your reasons and sources listed. Still don't hold your breath that it will be changed at all or it might take quite a long time as thosekind of bugs are not priority.

Still if you check the principality of Serbia in wikipedia it lists Rascia as one of the names of that title and refers several times it by that name.

 

[User29]

yeah, register game file bug report. they'll change the dukedom to serbia like finland. voila.

 

[SBolshevik]

Still if you check the principality of Serbia in wikipedia it lists Rascia as one of the names of that title and refers several times it by that name.

But Rascia refers to a state run from Rashka, and more importantly, Ras.

 

[Slavicist]

Register your game and suggest this as a Title issue in Bug Reports.

Unfortunately, I don't have a CKII game to register in the first place.

 

[SBolshevik]

Unfortunately, I don't have a CKII game to register in the first place.

So it's one of 2 options:
A) You haven't bought it yet. (Suggested by this sentence.)

I watched a couple of YouTube videos and inquired in general a bit about the game and the recent "Old Gods" expansion, and I've decided to offer some form of minimal assistance for the purpose of greater historicity.

B) You pirated it.
However, judging by the sentence mentioned above, I'd say it's A.

 

[Slavicist]

As a note, it could technically be done by simply making an event like West Francia => France, but there are other places where this should be implemented, (Poland, Finland, Greater Poland and Lesser Poland, etc.) so don't be sure that Paradox will implement it, especially since they haven't bothered to fix huge errors which are a lot more noticeable, like the Estonian namelist, which contains names like Altocumulus and Pivtsay.

I don't see how the Estonian namelist is far more noticeable; the current situation is paramount to calling the HRE e.g. "East Frankish Empire" and Barbarossa an "Eastern Frankish Emperor".

 

[Wezqu]

As a note, it could technically be done by simply making an event like West Francia => France, but there are other places where this should be implemented, (Poland, Finland, Greater Poland and Lesser Poland, etc.) so don't be sure that Paradox will implement it, especially since they haven't bothered to fix huge errors which are a lot more noticeable, like the Estonian namelist, which contains names like Altocumulus and Pivtsay.

Making a bug report about the name list would be a good start with list of the names that should not be there and those that should be and some explanation for the reasons is always good. They can't fix something when there is no one pointing it out. I for example got some names and corrections to the finnish name list the same way long time ago. You could for example offer new names to the list like some more christian ones or estonian versions of known royal names. Links are also good so the royal numbers go correctly.

 

[Slavicist]

Still if you check the principality of Serbia in wikipedia it lists Rascia as one of the names of that title and refers several times it by that name.

Occasionally it does so, albeit quite erroneously, but the Wikipedia article then again contains all loads of correct info. I should point out nevertheless that the article you named contains:

After Časlav died ca 960, "Rascia" (hinterland of Serbia) was annexed by the Byzantines (Catepanate of Serbia, 971–976) and Bulgars. Serbia lost its centralized rule and the provinces once again came under the Empire.

It is no coincidence that Rascia is named as such, because it is used mainly in a geographical sense.

Be it as it may, Rascia was just a smaller part of Serbia. The only logical thing is that Rascia's a county (as it was, a borderline region to the Bulgarian monarchy) of a dukedom of Serbia - and not vice-versa.

 

[SBolshevik]

I don't see how the Estonian namelist is far more noticeable; the current situation is paramount to calling the HRE e.g. "East Frankish Empire" and Barbarossa an "Eastern Frankish Emperor".

Oh, trust me, it is.
Rascia is a name which was used.
Altocumulus, Pivtsay, Andyamo, Tueykezhut, Vishkas, etc., werent.
And keep in mind, being a Serb, I would like a change for better historical accuracy to be made. Unfortunately, I do not think that that is likely to happen.

 

[Wezqu]

Be it as it may, Rascia was just a smaller part of Serbia. The only logical thing is that Rascia's a county (as it was, a borderline region to the Bulgarian monarchy) of a dukedom of Serbia - and not vice-versa.

Yeah reading from here it clearly states that Rascia was rarely used by serbs or greeks for the title so Duchy of Serbia would be more correct.

 

[Slavicist]

Yeah reading from here it clearly states that Rascia was rarely used by serbs or greeks for the title so Duchy of Serbia would be more correct.

It even cannot be said that it was used rarely, because prior to the 12th cent. it was never used by anyone at all. The text of the Wikipedian article you've cited states that "It may be used to describe the Serbian realm from 610–960." however this is fallacy upon itself - out of what imaginable reason would we use the name that would come to that use only during the Nemanjic dynasty in the High Middle Ages centuries later, instead of simply Serbia?

The region of Rassa is in the prior period only once mentioned in the mid 10th century by Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus' De Administrando Imperio (in the Chapter on the Serbs and their lands, 32nd), but merely as a borderline region (of Serbia) facing the Bulgarian realm.

 

[Thure]

No one in the game time use the term 'Byzantine Empire' too... Yes paradox use some ahistorical names for titles, but just because it's easier for the player.