Muscowy/Russia's a joke. How do you counter it?

[Novacat]

I have never seen AI russia expanding into India and seldomly seen AI russia expanding into China. If you mean Mr human, come on, every country which is controled by human player can expand into China and india easily because of the advantage of technology and military unit.

I will concede AI Russia rarely expands into India, but AI Russia does expand into China on a regular basis.

Lol. The Ottomans have a straight way to India. Can also go north and conquer the nomads.

Ottomans have to go through muslim tech countries (which are also strong early game) and Indian tech countries which are also extremely good. They also cannot go North without dealing with the Russians.

Eastern tech group troops are mostly inferior, for whatever reason... it is annoying, since polish nobles were best fencers in the period, because of how they used sabre. And they did often fought on foot, since some of the nobility were quite poor(szlachta-gołota). Lack of such thing as need for mobilization, makes game bit shallow... Standing armies, for the periods were quite small, until about near french revolution and napoleonic period.

Hm, I disagree with this. Eastern tech group is only substantially inferior in the first 100 years or so, once the Muskets come out in the mid 1500s Eastern tech group is on par with Ottomans, and late-game Eastern tech group handily beats Ottomans.

Ottomans vs Eastern - Infantry
Techs 1-4: Ottomans 4 pips, Eastern 2
Techs 5-9: Ottomans 8 pips, Eastern 6
Techs 10-11: Ottomans 12 pips, Eastern 10
Techs 12-17: Ottomans 21 pips, Eastern 20
Techs 18: Ottomans 21 pips, Eastern 21
Techs 19-23: Ottomans 26 pips, Eastern 26
Techs 24-25: Ottomans 31 pips, Eastern 26
Techs 26-29: Ottomans 38 pips, Eastern 40
Techs 30+: Ottomans 38 pips, Eastern 52

Ottomans vs Eastern - Cavalry
Techs 1-7: Ottomans 5 pips, Eastern 3
Techs 8-9: Ottomans 8 pips, Eastern 6
Techs 10-14: Ottomans 9 pips, Eastern 8
Techs 15-18: Ottomans 9 pips, Eastern 15
Techs 19-21: Ottomans 15 pips, Eastern 15
Techs 22-23: Ottomans 15 pips, Eastern 16
Techs 24: Ottomans 24 pips, Eastern 16
Techs 25-26: Ottomans 24 pips, Eastern 25
Techs 27: Ottomans 28 pips, Eastern 32
Techs 28+: Ottomans 34 pips, Eastern 32

 

[necro_vore]

Which is not really a viable option for Asian countries.

True, no matter how many allies you have you're still going to lose to Russia as an Asian country first time you meet them... but Asian countries are screwed anyway the first time a colonializing power appears. By the time Russia has made it far enough to start waging war on Ming or Delhi, the Portuguese or Spanish probably have colonies off the coast as well, so you can westernize. If you don't westernize, then you're getting eaten up by someone with the Expansion CB sooner or later. A westernized Ming is probably Russia's worst nightmare.

 

[Novacat]

True, no matter how many allies you have you're still going to lose to Russia as an Asian country first time you meet them... but Asian countries are screwed anyway the first time a colonializing power appears. By the time Russia has made it far enough to start waging war on Ming or Delhi, the Portuguese or Spanish probably have colonies off the coast as well, so you can westernize. If you don't westernize, then you're getting eaten up by someone with the Expansion CB sooner or later. A westernized Ming is probably Russia's worst nightmare.

Westernized Ming is not enough to stop Russia, as Russia's military NIs allow it to simply swarm Ming with troops and wear Ming down through attrition and superior technology. Ming has a chance against the other colonial powers because those colonial powers have to deal with shipping troops across the sea, once the Russians get land borders with Ming theres nothing stopping Russia from sending all their doomstacks into Ming.

Note that Ming has +10% discipline and +100% Manpower and thats it... while Russia has -50% Infantry Cost, +125% Manpower, and +50% Force Limits.

 

[brifbates]

Hm, I disagree with this. Eastern tech group is only substantially inferior in the first 100 years or so, once the Muskets come out in the mid 1500s Eastern tech group is on par with Ottomans, and late-game Eastern tech group handily beats Ottomans.

Ottomans vs Eastern - Infantry
Techs 1-4: Ottomans 4 pips, Eastern 2
Techs 5-9: Ottomans 8 pips, Eastern 6
Techs 10-11: Ottomans 12 pips, Eastern 10
Techs 12-17: Ottomans 21 pips, Eastern 20
Techs 18: Ottomans 21 pips, Eastern 21
Techs 19-23: Ottomans 26 pips, Eastern 26
Techs 24-25: Ottomans 31 pips, Eastern 26
Techs 26-29: Ottomans 38 pips, Eastern 40
Techs 30+: Ottomans 38 pips, Eastern 52

Ottomans vs Eastern - Cavalry
Techs 1-7: Ottomans 5 pips, Eastern 3
Techs 8-9: Ottomans 8 pips, Eastern 6
Techs 10-14: Ottomans 9 pips, Eastern 8
Techs 15-18: Ottomans 9 pips, Eastern 15
Techs 19-21: Ottomans 15 pips, Eastern 15
Techs 22-23: Ottomans 15 pips, Eastern 16
Techs 24: Ottomans 24 pips, Eastern 16
Techs 25-26: Ottomans 24 pips, Eastern 25
Techs 27: Ottomans 28 pips, Eastern 32
Techs 28+: Ottomans 34 pips, Eastern 32

You do understand that number of pips isn't everything, that distribution matters as well, I'm sure. Even so, until tech 15 Ottoman units have the advantage across the board even without considering their NIs (remember Russia has no combat bonuses, only size/cost). They also can add more combat ability through the piety bonus should they choose to forego the tech cost reduction.

 

[Hatting]

Ottomans have to go through muslim tech countries (which are also strong early game) and Indian tech countries which are also extremely good. They also cannot go North without dealing with the Russians.

I laugh at persian AI nations. AI nations in general are shit. And the russians in the north is the point of going north, as Ottomans i go north to block Russia in its way to Siberia and to expand.

Indian tech countries are usually divided and are not really good. Also i say the same about the AI=crap

 

[Novacat]

You do understand that number of pips isn't everything, that distribution matters as well, I'm sure. Even so, until tech 15 Ottoman units have the advantage across the board even without considering their NIs (remember Russia has no combat bonuses, only size/cost). They also can add more combat ability through the piety bonus should they choose to forego the tech cost reduction.

Ottoman quality improvements in their NIs and Religion are not a huge factor, only +10% Discipline and +25% Morale. The Ottomans major quality improvements is through their Janissaries, which are temporary.

Also, Ottoman troops are only undisputably superior until tech 12 or so, when Muskets are introduced. That usually happens around 1500. Past that they are mostly on par, until the Eastern gets a massive boost in the last 100 years of the game.

I laugh at persian AI nations. AI nations in general are shit. And the russians in the north is the point of going north, as Ottomans i go north to block Russia in its way to Siberia and to expand.

Indian tech countries are usually divided and are not really good. Also i say the same about the AI=crap

Naturally player vs AI is going to be lopsided... However, you are forgetting two things...

1. Hordes are just as balkanized, and have a worse tech group
2. A player Russia has the option to go Muslim and gain piety bonuses.

 

[Hatting]

Ottoman quality improvements in their NIs and Religion are not a huge factor, only +10% Discipline and +25% Morale. The Ottomans major quality improvements is through their Janissaries, which are temporary.

Also, Ottoman troops are only undisputably superior until tech 12 or so, when Muskets are introduced. That usually happens around 1500. Past that they are mostly on par, until the Eastern gets a massive boost in the last 100 years of the game.

Ottoman troops are not only good because of the kind of troops but because of the NIs and piety. And the first centuries are extremely important since that can mean a Russia blocked in Europe because Siberia is Ottoman (for example)

And a +10% Discipline and +25% morale is not something to understimate

 

[unmerged(815862)]

I will concede AI Russia rarely expands into India, but AI Russia does expand into China on a regular basis.

If you want to stop russia expanding into China，the solution should be strengthing China or other east Asian countries., not nerfing Russia. Russia expands into China because it has higher technology level, better military unit(which is worse than western countries) and its loacation(whcih could not change). In fact a unified China before the middle of 18th century can defend himself against any western countries in history, but in the game you can invade China easily in 17th century by any countries which has western technology.

 

[Novacat]

If you want to stop russia expanding into China，the solution should be strengthing China or other east Asian countries., not nerfing Russia. Russia expands into China because it has higher technology level, better military unit(which is worse than western countries) and its loacation(whcih could not change). In fact a unified China before the middle of 18th century can defend himself against any western countries in history, but in the game you can invade China easily in 17th century by any countries which has western technology.

Which is what I have been arguing for the past 3-4 pages. Russia is fine, its Russia's neighbors that are the problem, especially the Hordes/Chinese whom tend to roll over and die. Whichs is why Paradox's decision to nerf hordes in 1.2 and 1.3 to be particularly baffling.

 

[unmerged(815862)]

Westernized Ming is not enough to stop Russia, as Russia's military NIs allow it to simply swarm Ming with troops and wear Ming down through attrition and superior technology. Ming has a chance against the other colonial powers because those colonial powers have to deal with shipping troops across the sea, once the Russians get land borders with Ming theres nothing stopping Russia from sending all their doomstacks into Ming.

Note that Ming has +10% discipline and +100% Manpower and thats it... while Russia has -50% Infantry Cost, +125% Manpower, and +50% Force Limits.

In fact it's enough.You focus too much on the NI. If you have play as Ming, you will find it is very easy for you to prevent Russia from colonizing Siberia by colonizing Siberia yourself

 

[necro_vore]

Westernized Ming is not enough to stop Russia, as Russia's military NIs allow it to simply swarm Ming with troops and wear Ming down through attrition and superior technology. Ming has a chance against the other colonial powers because those colonial powers have to deal with shipping troops across the sea, once the Russians get land borders with Ming theres nothing stopping Russia from sending all their doomstacks into Ming.

Note that Ming has +10% discipline and +100% Manpower and thats it... while Russia has -50% Infantry Cost, +125% Manpower, and +50% Force Limits.

Yes, but first of all, Russia can't commit 100% of its troops just against Ming. Easily a quarter or more has to stay back to guard western and southern borders, because if you drag all your 150+ force limit armies into China, the Ottomans and the Poles and whoever is to the west and south of Russia will pounce. It takes ages to haul them all the way back from Beijing to, say, Smolensk. Second, Ming has some strategies it can use to counter Russia early, such as picking Expansion and taking some of Siberia well before Russia gets there, or setting up shop next to a colony of a western power to westernize early. If they don't westernize, well, then I agree with you, it's Russian boots in the Forbidden City in no time

 

[Novacat]

Ottoman troops are not only good because of the kind of troops but because of the NIs and piety. And the first centuries are extremely important since that can mean a Russia blocked in Europe because Siberia is Ottoman (for example)

Except Siberia is much farther from Ottomans than Eastern, even with Eastern disadvantages it should have no problem cutting off the Ottomans before they reach there.

And a +10% Discipline and +25% morale is not something to understimate

Neither is +125% Manpower, -50% infantry cost (remember this applies to maintenance costs too) and +50% Land force limits.

Yes, but first of all, Russia can't commit 100% of its troops just against Ming. Easily a quarter or more has to stay back to guard western and southern borders, because if you drag all your 150+ force limit armies into China, the Ottomans and the Poles and whoever is to the west and south of Russia will pounce. It takes ages to haul them all the way back from Beijing to, say, Smolensk. Second, Ming has some strategies it can use to counter Russia early, such as picking Expansion and taking some of Siberia well before Russia gets there, or setting up shop next to a colony of a western power to westernize early. If they don't westernize, well, then I agree with you, it's Russian boots in the Forbidden City in no time

Russia only having 150 force limits? My Siberian Timurids were sitting on 300+ Land Force Limits at least and im pretty sure my owned basetax was not nearly as large as a proper Russia. Also, your methods, setting up shop next to a colony of a western power and colonising Siberia, runs into two major issues.

1: Russia does not simply curbstomp you as soon as it gets adjacent to you.
2: You are able to find any Western colonies to westernize with... Europeans usually do not start showing up in Asia until 1700...

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Russia was not able to kick the hordes until Ivan the Terrible. 1552 was conquest of kazan.

Btw. He got into lot of agressive expansion, and in game terms he would be greatly overextended... then he attacked poland for livonia... which he lost, and in addition he had to give up land of polotsk. His expansion only did not shattered russia into pieces, because russia economy and strength was made such by rulers before him.

 

[Hatting]

Well, all i wanted to say is Russian NIs are fine as they are. If you mean it's about the hordes being too weak, i think you have reason. Making the hordes stronger does not mean the Ottomans will have it more easy to subjugate those hordes

 

[Dr. B]

Problem is Russia gets too strong too early. This was also the case in EUIII.

Ideally Russia should start out slower and weaker, and very gradually have the chance to become a unified force to be reckoned with. With the tech-system, this translates to the opposite (in theory, as lucky Russia is happily able to keep up with Europe).

The Idea system tries to model this by gradually giving bonuses, but they are too strong now. Simply observe what happens with AI vs AI games, Russia is the most ahistorically strong nation.

Historically the exploration & conquest of Siberia started in 1580. By that time they tend to have reached the pacific already, because they pick exploration Idea group and are lucky.

 

[Sarmatian]

Hm, I disagree with this. Eastern tech group is only substantially inferior in the first 100 years or so,

Which is when you make or break basically.

 

[Novacat]

Which is when you make or break basically.

Make, more often then break. Considering the AI has no problem surviving.

 

[unmerged(815862)]

Problem is Russia gets too strong too early. This was also the case in EUIII.

Ideally Russia should start out slower and weaker, and very gradually have the chance to become a unified force to be reckoned with. With the tech-system, this translates to the opposite (in theory, as lucky Russia is happily able to keep up with Europe).

The Idea system tries to model this by gradually giving bonuses, but they are too strong now. Simply observe what happens with AI vs AI games, Russia is the most ahistorically strong nation.

Historically the exploration & conquest of Siberia started in 1580. By that time they tend to have reached the pacific already, because they pick exploration Idea group and are lucky.

In EU3 I seldomly see Moscovy forming Russia which is usually conquered by Golden Horde

 

[brifbates]

In EU3 I seldomly see Moscovy forming Russia which is usually conquered by Golden Horde

A large part of that has to do with the start date. Muscovy's neighbors in 1444 are a lot different from 1399 as the horde fractured during that time frame.

 

[Sarmatian]

Make, more often then break. Considering the AI has no problem surviving.

Lucky nation.

If they weren't lucky, one lost war between 1444 and 1550 and they have good chance of disintegrating.