Muscovy/Russia idea groups (after Third Rome)

[CrazyZombie]

Well, I think that thread name speaks for itself, but anyway. I'm asking for the advice of more skilled players: what ideas are worthy for Russia after Third Rome DLC?

Once I've tried to take Quantity as first military tech. That was an interesting one try - early Muscovy seems to lack recruits for wars with equal enemies. Ofc, vassal principalities help a lot, but they are mostly good in carpet sieging, not in smashing 15-20k of angry enemies at once. Still, Quantity just give more recruits for long wars, but not ability to beat enemies, who somehow anyway have more soldiers/gold/tech, sometimes just everything from the list in one time. Even historically correct tactics of exhaustion wars is not working: in EU4 for some reason supply rates of troops deep in enemy territory allow them to recover from any casualties and travel for years in the regions, where even road would have been a dream. Also, attrition rates are too low for the period, when army could be completely destroyed by hunger or disease without any battle (so, corruption among army suppliers was WAY MORE dangerous than simple loss of army professionalism %). So, I need an "expert opinion" - how to win that goddamn wars?

In earlier topics I saw that Religious ideas are favoured. Problem is that fully taken branch needs a lot of admin points, and I can't say, Muscovy is swimming in them, thanks to being not close at all to the early institutions. I also kind of like Innovative ideas - they have helpful events and usefull effects for technological development, especially in the early game.

As a variant to waste Diplomatic points, I like old good Diplomacy and Trade. Can't say that colonist rushing to the New World through Siberia was worthy - yep, I took Alaska, but with all wasted time and resources, focus either in Europe or on Asia would have been more profitable, especially, while I still have no idea, how to beat goddamn Ming (yes, I know about their disaster of horde neighbor, but AI knows about it too and willingly declares war, no matter, who guarantees that horde).

So, back to the military. Kind of all groups in the line quantity/quality/offensive/defensive are "tasty", want to take everything. Still, I'm not a skilled player in EU4 at all, so can be completely wrong in my priorities. So, I need an advice here: what to take, in what order, what can be sacrificed to take more "peaceful" groups?

 

[Olterin]

I'd say that considering the route you'll likely be expanding in if you want a somewhat historically-looking Russia, early religious ideas are helpful for converting all those annoying Sunni hordes with their -2% local missionary strength. It is entirely possible to go that way and also expand - the trick is in milking estates for Monarch Points and in sticking with the pre-set admin focus (there's a lot of land to core). After that, the usual advice - offensive + defensive for a solid army, Russia can somewhat afford to skip/delay quantity due to Orthodox manpower being godlike when you get to 100 Patriarch Authority. With that said, Trade + Quantity look like they would be fun to do for the +20% goods produced policy, along with religious you can get another +10% Good Produced, for a total +30% - if you direct all the cashflow from Siberian "colonies" to your collection node that's a lot of money, in theory.

Generic good picks to deal with enemies (and having to develop institutions): offensive, economic + quality, defensive. Fill in the other groups as you see fit I'd say.

 

[CrazyZombie]

I'd say that considering the route you'll likely be expanding in if you want a somewhat historically-looking Russia, early religious ideas are helpful for converting all those annoying Sunni hordes with their -2% local missionary strength. It is entirely possible to go that way and also expand - the trick is in milking estates for Monarch Points and in sticking with the pre-set admin focus (there's a lot of land to core). After that, the usual advice - offensive + defensive for a solid army, Russia can somewhat afford to skip/delay quantity due to Orthodox manpower being godlike when you get to 100 Patriarch Authority. With that said, Trade + Quantity look like they would be fun to do for the +20% goods produced policy, along with religious you can get another +10% Good Produced, for a total +30% - if you direct all the cashflow from Siberian "colonies" to your collection node that's a lot of money, in theory.

Generic good picks to deal with enemies (and having to develop institutions): offensive, economic + quality, defensive. Fill in the other groups as you see fit I'd say.

Thanks. And what about priority? As for admin idea groups it feels like, everything is needed "right yesterday". Early innovative is valuable for those random events of more monarch points, while early religion will allow to profit from bordering with infidel nomads and cheap cultural conversion.

As for 100 Patriarch Authority, usually I wasn't getting so high even in my late-game. Maybe I'm doing something really wrong.

As for expansion paths, everything is simple: as I'm not sure at all about my ability to fight with Poland/Lithuania/Calmar union alone or all at one time (such stuff happened too), I usually take Novgorod (and continue eating it through 2-3 more wars), then attack Livonian order as soon as I can to provide footstep against PLC. At the same time I try to ally Poland.
After all this I recover and go South, step by step taking land from hordes. I'm not going to expand West before I have Siberian lands and riches in my hands. Also, it is very hard (for me) to steal something from PLC in early game - they can be attacked and lose war, so here I'll take something, or, on the contrary, they will dominate in the region, and can even attack me if I'm not friendly. As "defense in depth" is not working at all - soldiers are not dying in the needed rate, only chance is constant offense and friendship with those, whom you can't attack right now.

 

[Mrakvampire]

1. Religious
2. Defensive
3. Exploration

 

[CrazyZombie]

1. Religious
2. Defensive
3. Exploration

Ok, I can understand first two. What is the logic in thrird one?

 

[Olterin]

The specific priority depends on your gameplan. But as you've discovered, you need a bigger powerbase to be able to fight the western powers. I would recommend making a beeline for the Bashkir goldmine (that Kazan owns) and not waiting to pick the hordes apart while you're eating Novgorod. Ideally you'd severely cripple Novgorod in the first war waged against them, your vassals provide adequate manpower for the task - make sure to have a smaller army stack set aside for them to attach to and set them to "supportive", that way you can throw around about 20k troops that are mostly not yours thus not suffering un-necessary attrition to your own manpower pool - use your own troops as support stacks for this one to conserve precious manpower. Otherwise you're not making good use of a pretty big resource pool, since each vassal of yours, no matter how small, is guaranteed to have at least 10k manpower maximum.

So for idea groups, specifically, I would pick them as follows:
1. Religious (and keep focus on admin even beyond, until you're done with the rapid expansion phase)
2. Defensive/Offensive
-this one is debatable, since offensive provides a bigger forcelimit, faster siege timers and two guaranteed general pips, as well as 5% discipline, while defensive provides lower fort and troop maintenance, a maneuver general pip (mostly does not affect combat), and most importantly, 15% morale early in the group. I'd go for offensive if early wars against the Kalmar Union or the PLC seem unlikely (if they're not actively aggressing you you should be good to go with Offensive, I believe it is the stronger overall group but it takes longer to get there - otherwise defensive for the early power spike)
3. Exploration (assuming you do not own the Third Rome DLC as indicated by the profile badges) for the colonists to quickly fill up Siberia
-Economic/Admin/Diplo depending on ruler stats and campaign progress if you do own Third Rome (those siberian frontiers not needing a colonist are slightly ridiculous)
4.a. Offensive/Defensive (depending on which one you hadn't picked up before) - assuming you need a further boost to troop quality before admin/mil tech 18
4.b. Your choice of economic idea group to build the powerbase that you had rapidly assimilated until now - or Admin ideas if you intend to go on an even larger conquest streak at this point

With regards to Patriarch Authority, you get pulse events which offer either a raise in authority or some other benefit, such as 1 stab or 50 admin or some money, I don't remember them all. I would say it is worthwhile getting the Authority up unless you absolutely need the other bonus at that point in time. Also, the Clergy interaction "seek support" gives 5 Patriarch Authority every time it is used.

 

[schondetta]

Taking quantity is the worse possible idea group to take. Having loads of numbers does you absolutely no good and like you said doesnt win you battles. Only idiots recommend that set for Russia.

Defensive is pretty good early on for the morale, maintenance, and attrition modifiers . plays well with the russian region where invading enemies loose mp quickly and you can outrun them with maneuver. Im a big a fan of quality but that is up to playstyle. Offenseive defensive and quality are all leauges better than quantity

Its a general phenomena for less experienced players to not take an admin IG first and I get it but its always better in the long run to take the groups you NEED and not the ones that are most convenient at the time. Remember you don't HAVE to invest in a idea so you can fill it up at your own pace. And theres a general tendency for players to overvalue admin generation early on. The resource isnt that precious to warrant not taking admin ig early on which is usually the best case for almost all starts

 

[CrazyZombie]

The specific priority depends on your gameplan. But as you've discovered, you need a bigger powerbase to be able to fight the western powers. I would recommend making a beeline for the Bashkir goldmine (that Kazan owns) and not waiting to pick the hordes apart while you're eating Novgorod. Ideally you'd severely cripple Novgorod in the first war waged against them, your vassals provide adequate manpower for the task - make sure to have a smaller army stack set aside for them to attach to and set them to "supportive", that way you can throw around about 20k troops that are mostly not yours thus not suffering un-necessary attrition to your own manpower pool - use your own troops as support stacks for this one to conserve precious manpower. Otherwise you're not making good use of a pretty big resource pool, since each vassal of yours, no matter how small, is guaranteed to have at least 10k manpower maximum.

So for idea groups, specifically, I would pick them as follows:
1. Religious (and keep focus on admin even beyond, until you're done with the rapid expansion phase)
2. Defensive/Offensive
-this one is debatable, since offensive provides a bigger forcelimit, faster siege timers and two guaranteed general pips, as well as 5% discipline, while defensive provides lower fort and troop maintenance, a maneuver general pip (mostly does not affect combat), and most importantly, 15% morale early in the group. I'd go for offensive if early wars against the Kalmar Union or the PLC seem unlikely (if they're not actively aggressing you you should be good to go with Offensive, I believe it is the stronger overall group but it takes longer to get there - otherwise defensive for the early power spike)
3. Exploration (assuming you do not own the Third Rome DLC as indicated by the profile badges) for the colonists to quickly fill up Siberia
-Economic/Admin/Diplo depending on ruler stats and campaign progress if you do own Third Rome (those siberian frontiers not needing a colonist are slightly ridiculous)
4.a. Offensive/Defensive (depending on which one you hadn't picked up before) - assuming you need a further boost to troop quality before admin/mil tech 18
4.b. Your choice of economic idea group to build the powerbase that you had rapidly assimilated until now - or Admin ideas if you intend to go on an even larger conquest streak at this point

With regards to Patriarch Authority, you get pulse events which offer either a raise in authority or some other benefit, such as 1 stab or 50 admin or some money, I don't remember them all. I would say it is worthwhile getting the Authority up unless you absolutely need the other bonus at that point in time. Also, the Clergy interaction "seek support" gives 5 Patriarch Authority every time it is used.

Well, I own all EU4 DLCs, so, Third Rome too (otherwise thread name would have sounded a bit different). Siberian frontier is a good thing to own, agreed. Reflects Russian colonization style.

I don't waste time between wars, so, while I have truce with Novgorod, I start beating nomads, focusing on gold mines of Zlatoust. Poor unlucky Kazan...

 

[CrazyZombie]

Taking quantity is the worse possible idea group to take. Having loads of numbers does you absolutely no good and like you said doesnt win you battles. Only idiots recommend that set for Russia.

Defensive is pretty good early on for the morale, maintenance, and attrition modifiers . plays well with the russian region where invading enemies loose mp quickly and you can outrun them with maneuver. Im a big a fan of quality but that is up to playstyle. Offenseive defensive and quality are all leauges better than quantity

Its a general phenomena for less experienced players to not take an admin IG first and I get it but its always better in the long run to take the groups you NEED and not the ones that are most convenient at the time. Remember you don't HAVE to invest in a idea so you can fill it up at your own pace. And theres a general tendency for players to overvalue admin generation early on. The resource isnt that precious to warrant not taking admin ig early on which is usually the best case for almost all starts

Well, so Religious first, then something for Military?

 

[Foefaller]

Ok, I can understand first two. What is the logic in thrird one?

None with Third Rome, since IIRC Siberian Frontier colonization isn't affected by any +settler modifiers.

*might* be something you pick later on if colonizing California and Alaska sound fun (you can direct their trade through Giram and Siberia to reach the Novgorod/Baltic Sea trade nodes), but I'm not sure if that's a genuinely good idea or not.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

Admin->Influence->Religious->Offensive would be my choice

 

[CrazyZombie]

Admin->Influence->Religious->Offensive would be my choice

Admin is too focused on mercs. Cost reduction of coring is good, ofc, but take the whole group simply because of this...
Influence - to deal with vassals. As vassals of Moscow don't live too long, why to take that?

 

[Manic Eskimo]

Admin
Influence
Offensive

Would be my pick. I personally like innovative. But better players say it's garbage. I just finished a recent Poland game where I picked it first and I was swimming in monarch points largely to do with the early tech cost decrease. So I like it for Muscovy as well. I'll probably start using it more. Merc's are great for Muscovy why don't you like Mercs?

Religous used to be a no brainer before the nerf. Moving the free CB from the first idea to the last idea hurt it severely. Sometimes I used to take it and only get the first idea. I usually end up regretting it when I take it now.

 

[schondetta]

Well, so Religious first, then something for Military?

I would say that's a good start ! Its not an exact science but religious is clutch playing as orthodox

 

[ElGranCapitan]

Admin is too focused on mercs. Cost reduction of coring is good, ofc, but take the whole group simply because of this...
Influence - to deal with vassals. As vassals of Moscow don't live too long, why to take that?

Admin because you core A LOT of land and want to save admin as much as possible..you are far away from institutions so you'll have a bit of a tech penalty to deal with.
Influence because of Aggressive Expansion, I guess you could also go diplomatic as well

 

[Manic Eskimo]

Admin because
Influence because of Aggressive Expansion, I guess you could also go diplomatic as well

I think almost every game you want to go influence/diplomatic at some point. Unless you're going for a trade or colonization game.

 

[Horn and Ivory]

I'll reiterate taking religious early. It's very powerful as Russia. Could take admin instead but in the short term it'll be a rebel-fest. Probably it's still be worth getting Admin at some point, because even if you use none of the merc bonuses the RCC is just so spectacularly efficient if you're playing wide (as as Russia usually you are), to the extent that it can be worth picking the whole group just for the one idea.

I'll be the idiot who recommends Quantity. It's a stupid pick, no bones about it, as you already get most of its key bonuses from national ideas or religion; but I love taking it as Russia anyway. You just need to get into the habit of thinking that you ought to be outnumbering four to one to win battles. There's nothing like it for an exhaustion strategy. It's a wonderful hilarious very characterful playstyle. If you actually want function, though, defensive is 100% the right call, as it makes your big rubbish army both cheap enough to field and capable of winning battles sometimes.

But as said above, Religious followed by a mil group is a good start.

I'd say if you want Innovative at some point, get it, as it's better with Russia than with most tags. But it's much, much less essential than Religious.

Both Diplo and Influence could be good. Wouldn't criticise either pick.

If (and only if) you're not going to move into India (or some other rich place) so much that money is functionally infinite, Trade or Economic is pretty handy once you've got the essential stuff. Those big armies can really eat up the ducats. If you're not digging deep in Persia and maybe a bit into northern India before taking on the big hitters (especially Ming), I recommend it.

 

[Mrakvampire]

Ok, I can understand first two. What is the logic in thrird one?

You will reach pacific ocean VERY QUICKLY with Siberian Frontier. And with exploration north america is yours for taking.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

You will reach pacific ocean VERY QUICKLY with Siberian Frontier. And with exploration north america is yours for taking.

Why would you want that? You can only push 3 trade nodes to asia (and from there to your home node) and 2 of those aren't even good

 

[qwertzuiop]

1. Religious
2. Defensive
3. Exploration

I'd go with this too, though Exploration depends on whether you want to do overseas colonization or not. Religious and Defensive synergize very well with Russia. Religious because you have a religion that is very good at converting and you border a lot of different religion land and Defensive because you are in a position where you can make use of all the "indirect" modifiers (attrition, etc.). Defensive is especially good if you have land to maneuver.

Apart from that I'm going to recommend Administrative. It's just that good.