Muscovy in 1.22

[Lt. Condition]

Is it just me or Muscovy a bit OP this patch? I don't mean this in gameplay terms (that's not a big deal, obviously, given a lot of other nations) but in terms of historically: from the outset they can basically fight all of their neighbors at the same time and win comfortably. Given the historical trend of Russian expansion, this seems a bit...premature.

I mean, I get that Paradox wanted to make Muscovy -> Russia basically the default for most games, but the really seem like an inevitable power a good fifty or so years too early. They were always strong, but now it just seems absurd. It'd be nice to see them toned down a bit, just to make the outcome in Russian less of a default (minus player interference, obviously).

 

[schondetta]

That is known as railroading and it affects the Russian region almost all of Asia and the middle east effectivley cutting off most the map from any dynamic outcome

 

[KubiG37]

I have to disagree to some extent.

Most people consider Muscovy in 1.22 to be actually nerfed, compared to previous patches (mostly because of their changed national ideas).
Also while AI forming Russia was always quite common, they have rarely if ever achieved their historical landsize and power (they often loose to Ming, Ottomans, even Sweden sometimes, and they rarely defeat Commonwealth completely, if they defeat them at all)

But I did not buy Third Rome DLC, so I have no idea how does it affect their performance.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Most people consider Muscovy in 1.22 to be actually nerfed, compared to previous patches (mostly because of their changed national ideas).

I doubt there's substantive data to back such a perspective, but if it were true I would conclude most people are not very experienced with the game's tradeoffs. You can make a case that the 5% CCR nerf makes them slightly harder for WC in the relative sense to previous patches, but it's hard to buy even that. Not with Streltsy as an enormous manpower boost button (and by mid game a significant quality boost too), buffs to Orthodox, and Siberian frontiers. Their 1444 strength is even more ahistorically high than in previous patches too thanks to vassals throwing more bodies around. In player hands this is a reasonable WC pick, weaker than hordes/Ottomans/Ming/HRE plays but stronger than anything else.

Without the DLC, they're about the same as they were previously, but with the DLC they're pretty ridiculous.

 

[Lt. Condition]

Their 1444 strength is even more ahistorically high than in previous patches too thanks to vassals throwing more bodies around.

Without the DLC, they're about the same as they were previously, but with the DLC they're pretty ridiculous.

This was my impression. They were always strong, but with the vassal swarm they start with it's just silly.

I posted this originally after witnessing a war (trying another futile Athens start) where they were in three separate wars with Poland / Lithuania, Kazan (and whatever allied he had, I think maybe Nogai or one of the other hordes) and Novgorod, all at once, and was still winning handily, in the 1450s. Muscovy was powerful, but not the regional superpower, and certainly not to that extent.

 

[Dakka]

I agree, Russia is totally OP this patch.

I'm really looking forward to the Anatolia tweak DD tomorrow. Ottomans need buffed to balance the region

 

[Dominion]

Thing about Russia is and has always been: They lack any form of peak or useful way to blob

Ottos peak after core rec + Janissaries, Sweden needs independence, Prussia needs to be formed, [...]

France and England can colonize, Spain can be formed, colonize and expand South, Bahmanis and Vij have India for themselves, [...]

All big players have some point where they can go off like a rocket except for Russia.

There's no trade unless you go into Gazi which means having Ottos in your face, expanding east gives you low dev, poor trade and long walking distances, their NIs give you no CA until they're full (art CA in 4th? yea, that sounds useful) whilst going south or west is impossible for the AI unless Commonwealth doesn't form or Sweden gets its indepence without Russian support.

A player can do a lot with them, but AI Russia is just screwed. Most difficult time I ever had was with Kinslayer and that's only because you clash right at the start of the game where FL is pretty much the only thing that counts.

There aren't even many interesting nations to play that are threatened by them, so players will only ever see them whien they're beatable.

Bare in mind, I am talking about AI Russia, not MP human Russia.
That's a completely different beast.

 

[Roxas15]

In my ironman game russia conquered parts of ming and is the reason for mings decline.

 

[Chippings]

Having recently achieved Frozen Assets, I can heartily agree with the sentiment that Muscovy is a monster. The Ottomans of the North. Maybe scarier. Preposterously powerful.

Now maybe I wouldn't be as proud of the achievement if it weren't for the challenge, but facing Muscovy in its current state, after 20 or so restarts, made me self reflect and consider if EUIV was really the thing I should be investing my time into.

I suppose the Florryworries, Arumbas and DDR Jakes of the world wouldn't be satisfied without 1.22 Third Rome Muscovy and its like, but for me it's much too overtuned.

Make the nearby hordes stronger and more of a threat, and possibly have lowered development, and/or negative events. Then have development events like Persia as necessary to reach whatever desired power level, once they're out from under horde yoke. Pointless speculation here, though, since the expansion is done and gone and revisiting the most recently addressed area is pure fantasy land.

 

[Lukebnm]

Muscovy is fine as it is, as the previous posters have said already, even in the current patch they still have trouble expanding sometimes so its definitely not railroaded. In previous patches however it was much worse, trying to get the 'Guarantor of Peace' achievement was near impossible because Russia never formed, and to add to that in the current patch I've have not seen the Poland AI take the union over Lithuania once so that obviously makes it easier for Muscovy.

Having recently achieved Frozen Assets, I can heartily agree with the sentiment that Muscovy is a monster. The Ottomans of the North. Maybe scarier. Preposterously powerful.

Now maybe I wouldn't be as proud of the achievement if it weren't for the challenge, but facing Muscovy in its current state, after 20 or so restarts, made me self reflect and consider if EUIV was really the thing I should be investing my time into.

I'm not sure what you were doing but I was able to get a successful Ryazan campaign on my 4th restart, with the first 3 being practice runs to decide my strategy, and although I got 25 corruption in my first war against Muscovy, that was only because of the Lithuanian AI being useless (0% war participation) and me forgetting to choose the discipline icon earlier.

Screenshot from when Muscovy were no longer a threat to my expansion.

 

[LeKaiser]

I have to disagree to some extent.

Most people consider Muscovy in 1.22 to be actually nerfed, compared to previous patches (mostly because of their changed national ideas).
Also while AI forming Russia was always quite common, they have rarely if ever achieved their historical landsize and power (they often loose to Ming, Ottomans, even Sweden sometimes, and they rarely defeat Commonwealth completely, if they defeat them at all)

But I did not buy Third Rome DLC, so I have no idea how does it affect their performance.

Guess I'm not sure who 'most people' are, or at least, I can say it doesn't include me. I've done a Ryazan Kinslayer/Breaking the Yoke run in 1.22 and found it much, much more challenging than previous times I've started with minors in that region. Since every new vassal contributes 10,000 manpower and 5-6 forcelimit to Muscovy's wars they're much more powerful right out of the gate than in previous patches, more than outweighing the nerf to their national ideas.

I think it's a bit ahistorical because it encourages absolute Muscovite dominance in the region long before it really happened. On the other hand, I don't really have a problem with it - they're definitely more powerful and that makes for a fun challenge.

 

[Lt. Condition]

Muscovy is fine as it is, as the previous posters have said already, even in the current patch they still have trouble expanding sometimes so its definitely not railroaded.

You're missing the point. It's not that they're too strong to kill (they're not) it's that in 1444 they're ahistorically powerful compared to their neighbors. Muscovy didn't sack Kazan until the 1550s historically, and yet here they're capable of not only invading Kazan but fighting Lithuania and Novgorod at the same time. I get that things won't be perfect but it seems like there's much more of an effort to have the western european powers at an appropriate relative strength--in Russia, they don't even pretend.

One of the things I liked in previous patches was, as the time I reached certain regions, discovering what alternate history had played out. In both Ming and Russia in 1.22, the outcome is almost certain sans player intervention, and it makes for a less interesting game (IMO, of course). *That's* my problem with this, not my ability to kill them.

 

[Dakka]

Muscovy didn't sack Kazan until the 1550s

By that logic, Granada needs to be super buffed too.

I've seen Russia die plenty of times without player intervention. The screenshot I posted earlier I was playing Japan. That was all AI's doing

 

[Lt. Condition]

By that logic, Granada needs to be super buffed too.

The difference being the Muscovy historically wasn't in a position to do so before it did.

Maybe I've just been unlucky but the only times I've seen them collapse are when they pick on a Ming tributary and get Moscow sacked.

 

[Dakka]

The difference being the Muscovy historically wasn't in a position to do so before it did.

Neither was Castile with Granada.

Maybe I've just been unlucky but the only times I've seen them collapse are when they pick on a Ming tributary and get Moscow sacked.

Mine died to the hordes, actually. Golden Horde and Kazan at most of them, then the rest got picked off by random nations like vultures.
Ming it the only country I have yet to see get killed by AI any time in the past two patches.

 

[lolada]

Muscovy is no doubt way too strong. It kills everyone without effort and it kind of ruins playing those countries around. Have fun dying as Novgorod 10 times in a row. Its like the old France with vassal swarm. I really really dislike this new trend of overbuffing content specific nations. Ming is stupid strong and overbuffed even after nerfs.

I recently played EU3 and Muscovy in EU3 is in 20x worse position.

If anything Russia has weaker ideas than Muscovy, but its a bigger country at that point.

 

[Mortheim]

You're missing the point. It's not that they're too strong to kill (they're not) it's that in 1444 they're ahistorically powerful compared to their neighbors. Muscovy didn't sack Kazan until the 1550s historically, and yet here they're capable of not only invading Kazan but fighting Lithuania and Novgorod at the same time. I get that things won't be perfect but it seems like there's much more of an effort to have the western european powers at an appropriate relative strength--in Russia, they don't even pretend.

Because they were occupied with Novgorod and Lithuania. Before that - internal problems.

And, again, Kazan was in Muscovies sphere of influence (ruler of Kazan was appointed by Ivan III). So, they had means to conquer Kazan, but there was no point in conquering those lands. Instead, GDM (Grand Duchy of Moscow) turned it head to the west - orthodox slavic lands under catholic lithuanians)
So, Kazan was taken in 1487 and loyal to GDM ruler was placed (Möxämmädämin). Later, because nobles were unhappy with his rule and with help from Nogaian murzas, Ivan III agreed that they can choose another Khan.
Next war between Kazan and Muscovy happened in 1505-1507, after Möxämmädämin became khan AGAIN using military help from GDM and, later, decided to get independance. Nizhny Nobgorod was sieged by 60k army (40k Kazan troops, 20k Nogai troops). Nizhny Nobgorod had pretty small garrison, but there was A LOT of firearms and prisoners of war from last war with Lithuania (who were, mainly, east slavic and were waiting to be released). So, voevoda Ivan Habar decided to arm them. Tatars weren't able to take Nizhny Novgorod, so they retreated. Meanwhile 100k army was gathered to take Kazan.
So, in 1506 army of Muscovy came under Kazan and was defeated (twice, lol). They weren't full defeats, cause some parts were able to retreat (the reason why Muscovy army lots was leader, son of Ivan III - Dmitriy, who was AWFUL commander and did a lot of stupid mistakes). Exact number of losses are unknown. I think that ~half or third of army was destroyed as consequence of bad leadership.
But, in 1507, Möxämmädämin send ambassador to Great Knyaz and asked for peace, offering to release all captives and coming back to GMD's sphere of influence.

There were some other wars, but they are for another time :3 Still, i wanted to show, that diplomacy wasn't static in horde territories. Also, most hordes are overnerfed.

Spoiler: Map: GDM by the end of the reign of Ivan III