Muscovy have been majorly nerfed

[nicechinos]

You did well, but IMO conquesting Scandanavia was probably a mistake. The only provinces you really want/need are the Novgorod/White Sea trade nodes. Baltic trade node is not really worth it.

After dealing with Novgorod, I actually recommend turning east and conquering the Hordes. You just need to vassalize one then you can use its Tribal Feud CB to conquer the rest of the steppes. Once you finish feeding your horde all of Siberia, you can then integrate it and have all of Siberia instantly cored. Given it will all start at 75% autonomy but you will probably have more money and forcelimits than you could use anyway.

1) Agreed on Scandinavia. Dalaskogen is probably the one worthy thing north of Shaelland.
2) No good reason to annex Livonians as they provide cheaper tech via Western Arms Trade. Their land is very poor as well.
3) Breaking PLC down right of the bat after Novgorod is a top priority in my book. Shemiaka will help to defeat Lithuania/Poland and drive WE up to 8 which is all you want. Lithuania is reduced by Belorussian and Ruthenian lands and you don't have to think about increased coring cost ever again. Just eat the independent states before Crimea/GH does. Lithuania is a paper tiger at the beginning with high LA and unrest potential but gets much stronger once it fills out Humanism. Aristocratic is not pretty as well.

4) I tend not to ally natural rivals (such as Poland ) but beat crap out of them as soon as possible.
5) Winter wars are always "Let them come to us" as Finland/Northern provinces are very low supply limit. If they want to siege - let them siege. Attrition will destroy them.
6) Neither humanism nor religious is required to conquer stuff in 1.8. But if you already have Humanism you can take all the negative tolerance/ unrest decisions to buff missionary strength on the chin. DoF and religious centers for additional missionaries. Russia game is never complete without restoring pentarchy.
7) I don't think that hordes are great priority in 1.8. Separate culture, low tax base, not particularly strategic, only weakening as games goes by. One-shot vassalise Kazan and feed all tatar lands to it. Annex when you are ready to convert.
8) Manpower is horrible. Peasant wars are very Adm costly and Times of Troubles is not pleasant as well.

Defensive CTAs always come first. The only way to circumvent this is to attack someone with the help of Poland and then declare on Lithuania.

 

[Moondrinker]

You did well, but IMO conquesting Scandanavia was probably a mistake [...] I actually recommend turning east and conquering the Hordes. [...]

Thank you. Yes, conquering Scandinavia proved a mistake. Denmark was getting too big and I wanted to push my forces to Riga to bolster my navy, before the scandinavian union got out of hand. I did get 3-4 fur provinces and a good vantage point for another skirmish with Denmark where I try to take the last three estonian provinces.
Isn't vassal feeding considered a bit gamey? I'm just asking frankly here, I don't know.

I might be playing the wrong nation, but the steppes doesn't appeal to me at all. I want to conquer The Urals and Siberia for the Iron, but those low base tax provinces further down south isn't really where I want to put my game.

 

[Beagá]

You can go Exploration, colonize Siberia ASAP and go for Australia and California.

 

[nicechinos]

Thank you. Yes, conquering Scandinavia proved a mistake. Denmark was getting too big and I wanted to push my forces to Riga to bolster my navy, before the scandinavian union got out of hand. I did get 3-4 fur provinces and a good vantage point for another skirmish with Denmark where I try to take the last three estonian provinces.
Isn't vassal feeding considered a bit gamey? I'm just asking frankly here, I don't know.

I might be playing the wrong nation, but the steppes doesn't appeal to me at all. I want to conquer The Urals and Siberia for the Iron, but those low base tax provinces further down south isn't really where I want to put my game.

Reformation usually destroys union anyway. They got tons of nationalist and religious rebels. It's very unstable.
Vassal feeding is not gamey. Especially in 1.8. It is one of the greatest improvements compared with 1.7. You can use your vassal CBs and vassal hordes CBs as well.
Fur is only good late game in 1.8. Starting price is meh. It starts to get good when you build trade companies in Siberian node area and transfer trade from Siberia to Kazan to Novgorod. Before that maxing out Kazan/Kiev/Novgorod trade building is a priority (around 30 ducats with depots maxed out and few iron/copper constables/workshops). That's the only reasonable way to make money as Muscovy early game as Muscovy. Except PLC lootfest, of course.

 

[nicechinos]

You can go Exploration, colonize Siberia ASAP and go for Australia and California.

Or Iceland-Greenland-Northern Canada. Or both with four colonists.

 

[Beagá]

Yes, but it feels... weird as Russia. Did that once in a Hansa game.

 

[nicechinos]

Yes, but it feels... weird as Russia. Did that once in a Hansa game.

Why does it? Russia did colonize Alyaska and California. But that was through the Pacific. Anyhow not much weirder than Theodoro empire.

 

[Novacat]

I might be playing the wrong nation, but the steppes doesn't appeal to me at all. I want to conquer The Urals and Siberia for the Iron, but those low base tax provinces further down south isn't really where I want to put my game.

The Steppes are more of a land bridge to India and China which is your real target. Once you own India/China, you will be swimming in more money and forcelimits than you could possibly use.

 

[oblio-]

Straightaway coring is better in 1.8 from the expansion perspective (annexed vassal land will start with 75% LA providing little economic or manpower benefit). However, PLC probably already got the second Aristocratic idea so vassal feeding (Polotsk and any of Ruthenian principalities) is the only choice.
Fleet can be really good for Russia however it doesn't justify taking naval/maritime, agreed on that. Naval superiority over Danes/Swedes/Ottomans is easily achieved through maxing out naval bases/arsenals and going well over forcelimit in galleys. And it's historical too.

We're vehemently in agreement, it seems. Glad to see I got the seal of approval.
On a more serious note, stop biting people's heads off in general, the EU4 forum environment is quite friendly and I don't want it to degenerate into trolling, name calling and other silly stuff. Start reading posts as if your dear mother wrote them

Thank you. Yes, conquering Scandinavia proved a mistake. Denmark was getting too big and I wanted to push my forces to Riga to bolster my navy, before the scandinavian union got out of hand. I did get 3-4 fur provinces and a good vantage point for another skirmish with Denmark where I try to take the last three estonian provinces.
Isn't vassal feeding considered a bit gamey? I'm just asking frankly here, I don't know.

I might be playing the wrong nation, but the steppes doesn't appeal to me at all. I want to conquer The Urals and Siberia for the Iron, but those low base tax provinces further down south isn't really where I want to put my game.

Vassal feeding was one of the historical ways to occupy a land. It wasn't often available, but it was used: get a friendly administration somewhere and help it grow at the expense of your enemies. It was used even in modern times: Manchukuo.

 

[nicechinos]

We're vehemently in agreement, it seems. Glad to see I got the seal of approval.
On a more serious note, stop biting people's heads off in general, the EU4 forum environment is quite friendly and I don't want it to degenerate into trolling, name calling and other silly stuff. Start reading posts as if your dear mother wrote them


Vassal feeding was one of the historical ways to occupy a land. It wasn't often available, but it was used: get a friendly administration somewhere and help it grow at the expense of your enemies. It was used even in modern times: Manchukuo.

LOL, oblio you'll once become comedian we need but not deserve
"if your dear mother wrote them"
I'll probably reserve my right to bite some heads off. Legacy of the Impaler they say.

 

[oblio-]

LOL, oblio you'll once become comedian we need but not deserve
"if your dear mother wrote them"

It's from a netiquette article I can't find anymore. And it's a very good description about how you should handle online conversations. Even though sometimes temper gets the best of you.

 

[atwix]

Learn to play, mate. Stop whining. Just learn to play.

i had tough time reading this far, but you are way out of line. You accuse people that see AI form a strong Muscovy *every* *single* *time* of being a bad player. Stop this nationalist bullshit, will you. Funny fact is that French folks here will never react as you do, when people complain France is OP. Wonder why that is...

What has fared into people on this forum since the announcement of 1.8 being on 30 october?

 

[Ranjid]

aer you sure about the HRE? it includes so much of italy and other non germanic cultures, why would it be a germanic culture union?

I am sure. Just check this screenshot. I really like how the HRE is an "Archduchy" and not a....you know...actual Empire? Hopefully they'll integrate the PLC before the game ends. Would be the biggest AI blob I've ever seen.

 

[hajutze]

Well if you ask Hitler the north italians are germans anyway ...

 

[atwix]

Yes, something was altered. A nation that begins the game with significantly more units total (PLC combo) was granted lucky nation status, meaning that rather than being a tech backwards piece of garbage with weaker generals, those larger #s are suddenly bigger in tech and have better generals by default.

The hordes are not the reason Muscovy is struggling, at least not directly. Hordes love to pile on weak nations though, and PLC spanking Muscovy is all it takes to open a cascading chain of "kick the can while it's down".

if golden horde has muscovy as enemy at start, they get stomped. Somehow AI muscovy goes for kazan first then, or Kazan goes for Perm. I did like 20 Yaroslavl runs, and based my 'independance" strategy on this.

Muscoy nerfed? People forget that if they don't get a PORT from novgorod the first years, they won't take expansion ideas. Well, enough said. If hordes weaken Muscovy, Lithuania steps in if they do NOT get PU with Poland. Lithuania can get POLAND as minor PU subject, did you know? Seen it happen in one of those runs. Bit like Iberian wedding where ARAGON getd Castille as minor PU subject. It can happen.

Can we please stop saying OP? No nation in eu4 is OP. None is unbeatable, not even France late game. What defeats Muscovy most late game is their vulnerability to falling in a PU. If you can't defeat Russia, then don't fight Russia.. Marry them. Just saying.....

 

[DicRoNero]

Well, seems they indeed nerfed Muscovy - according to 'questions' thread, even switching to Catholicism now requires this religion to be dominant. A needless change, if you ask me.

Huh, I might as well go Sunni - after getting into HRE, of course.

 

[oblio-]

Well, seems they indeed nerfed Muscovy - according to 'questions' thread, even switching to Catholicism now requires this religion to be dominant. A needless change, if you ask me.

Huh, I might as well go Sunni - after getting into HRE, of course.

Some of these replies boggle the mind. How is Muscovy exactly "nerfed" by the religion changes?
1. Muscovy switching to Catholicism was far from common.
2. Many other countries are affected by this as well.

On this note Muscovy was nerfed by the merger of the London and Antwerp trade nodes, since before it could have conquered Great Britain, switched the trade capital and collected there. Now if it wants to do this, it definitely has to fight the Netherlands over the new trade node.

Sure, there are direct nerfs and indirect nerfs, but some of these complaints are becoming a bit silly.

Other examples of slightly silly complaints: expecting that like clockwork Muscovy eats up Novgorod in 100% of the games, or that only AI Muscovy ever forms Russia.

 

[nicechinos]

Other examples of slightly silly complaints: expecting that like clockwork Muscovy eats up Novgorod in 100% of the games, or that only AI Muscovy ever forms Russia.

Muscovy should be able to eat Novgorod 100% of the time. Novgorod didn't put up a good fight at all. It's not even HYW case.
There were two major battles when heavily outnumbered regular forces of Muscovy crushed Novgorod militia, captured and executed Novgorod nobles. The balance was heavily on Muscovy's side. Unless I witness AI England winning HYW I prefer to see Muscovy crushing Novgorod 100% of the time quickly.

 

[Novacat]

Muscovy should be able to eat Novgorod 100% of the time. Novgorod didn't put up a good fight at all. It's not even HYW case.
There was two major battles when heavily outnumbered regular forces of Muscovy crushed Novgorod militia, captured and executed Novgorod nobles. The balance was heavily on Muscovy's side. Unless I witness AI England winning HYW I prefer to see Muscovy crushing Novgorod 100% of the time quickly.

They usually do unless Muscovy is dogpiled by the Hordes, Novgorod, and Lithuania at the same time.

Huh, I might as well go Sunni - after getting into HRE, of course.

Non-Christian religions and HRE never mix well. You will never become emperor and even if you somehow do, you will never be able to expand the HRE beyond a certain size since expanding the HRE requires Christian provinces.

 

[DicRoNero]

Some of these replies boggle the mind. How is Muscovy exactly "nerfed" by the religion changes?
1. Muscovy switching to Catholicism was far from common.
2. Many other countries are affected by this as well.

Switching from Catholicism to Orthodoxy was never happening at all. Hence, no majors are affected. The rest of Orthodox countries are in the same boat, indeed, but they are not majors, so who cares about that. I'm usually comparing majors to majors, since they are in their own league.

That said, I should have probably put a smiley there, since that's indeed not that much of a nerf. It's just odd that switching to Sunni is now of the same difficulty as simply switching to a heretical branch of Christianity.

Non-Christian religions and HRE never mix well. You will never become emperor and even if you somehow do, you will never be able to expand the HRE beyond a certain size since expanding the HRE requires Christian provinces.

I just want Imperial Integrity, that's it.