Muscovy first idea groups

[Magean]

Hi,

I'll be starting a MP game with some friends, I'll probably play as Muscovy. It shouldn't be too much of a competitive MP.

So, I was pondering the question of my first NI groups.

I'll probably take Expansion as a third NI group, it'll unlock the Siberian Frontier NI at the same time. Taking it previously wouldn't be very useful since I wouldn't be able to see very far in Siberia. And Siberian provinces aren't that great anyway, especially with the 50 Autonomy cap.

As a first idea group, I'm considering Influence, Religious and Humanism. These three are great to support early expansion, though Influence is probably better in the "crush Novgorod" phase. Religious and Humanism would be great against the Tatars. Religious is amazing when it comes to integrating alien provinces, and frankly it fits the Russian conquest of the steppe quite well, because of cheaper culture conversions. So, I'll probably go for Religious, but Influence is very tempting. Humanism comes last.

The eliminated two will not be considering again before the 4th group, because as a second group, I'll go for Military ideas. Though I'm not sure which group. Quantity is perhaps not optimal, but hilarious nevertheless with Muscovy. Zerglings anyone ?
Also, with the last patch, it seems that outnumbering the enemy has more impact than before. The balance between quality and quantity (not the idea groups, just the concepts) has apparently somewhat moved toward quantity. Defensive is quite good for Russia. And Offensive can't be bad. But, again, Quantity would be quite fun.

Anyway... your thoughts ?

Thanks in advance

 

[Denkt]

Religious is probably the best because the first idea give you good cbs against nearly all you neigbours for the rest of the game.

 

[ahyangyi]

I'd pick Religious since I'm afraid the fragmented Tartar cultures won't even hit the 10% threshold. Also, even if you only get 50% income from your Siberian colonies, they still count towards your total base tax at 100% so it will be easy to lose cultures.

And I'll pick Defensive over Quantity because I feel the attrition bonus stacks quite well while the manpower bonus doesn't.

 

[nicechinos]

In 1.8 religious or humanist is not a requirement thanks to advanced vassal feeding. It's a matter of choice and style. I prefer to use vasal hordes CBs vs other hordes and expansion CB later on. I always take expansion second and unlock the first idea for a colonist. You would have enough spread of discoveries to keep him occupied while you are going for Siberian frontier. I usually start with Aristocratic to get cheaper than Western military tech, then expansion, Defensive (military traditions, supply trains and improved foraging are very handy). Influence should be a great start as well. It's very OP in 1.8.

 

[wolfing]

maybe not for MP, but as Muscovy I just played a SP game where I didn't take Expansion idea group since when you become Russia you get a free colonist, and with that colonist I colonized the whole Siberia and all the way to Alaska, freeing me for taking more juicy idea groups.

 

[MiniaAr]

In 1.8 religious or humanist is not a requirement thanks to advanced vassal feeding. It's a matter of choice and style. I prefer to use vasal hordes CBs vs other hordes and expansion CB later on. I always take expansion second and unlock the first idea for a colonist. You would have enough spread of discoveries to keep him occupied while you are going for Siberian frontier. I usually start with Aristocratic to get cheaper than Western military tech, then expansion, Defensive (military traditions, supply trains and improved foraging are very handy). Influence should be a great start as well. It's very OP in 1.8.

Can you really afford a MIL group first thing in MP though? There are Lithuanian, Swedish and Horde players all around you just waiting for you to get behind in tech .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Can you really afford a MIL group first thing in MP though? There are Lithuanian, Swedish and Horde players all around you just waiting for you to get behind in tech .

Yes, if you NF military. It depends how "competitive" the game is.

You can go something like expansion, influence, offensive, aristocratic, innovative, defensive, quantity, quality. Then you enact policies like

- +.5 traditions +1 leader fire (1 mil)
- +20% infantry combat ability

or even another 50% or 25% FL boost if needed (doubtful). Expansion full annex --> release to bring Asian vassals up to tech and Orthodoxize them (opening decisions that give them missionary strength), with reduced cost and faster annexation from influence. Then you just sit at 90 minimum AT with +2 leader fire, +2 leader shock, 10% discipline and 20% infantry combat with infantry cost massively reduced.

But you can just swap out expansion for religious too if you want, should make the opening faster since you get a good CB immediately. Military idea gouging like that will be obnoxiously cumbersome to overcome for anybody who doesn't do it.

 

[Magean]

Thanks guys for your answers.

maybe not for MP, but as Muscovy I just played a SP game where I didn't take Expansion idea group since when you become Russia you get a free colonist, and with that colonist I colonized the whole Siberia and all the way to Alaska, freeing me for taking more juicy idea groups.

Really ? I can't find what that free settler is. Isn't it just the one from the Siberian Frontier NI ?

Also, expansion+quantity open up a policy that gives a settler, for a total of three.

By the way, if I transfer the control of a province I occupy to a vassal of mine, assuming that province was discounted by the wargoal, will I pay the full DIP point cost when I take it for my vassal ?

 

[Denkt]

You pay full diplo and full aggresive expansion too.

 

[MiniaAr]

Thanks guys for your answers.



Really ? I can't find what that free settler is. Isn't it just the one from the Siberian Frontier NI ?

Also, expansion+quantity open up a policy that gives a settler, for a total of three.

By the way, if I transfer the control of a province I occupy to a vassal of mine, assuming that province was discounted by the wargoal, will I pay the full DIP point cost when I take it for my vassal ?

Nope, no DIP cost for this, I tested it multiple times. For example, claiming Tver and transfering occupation to Yaroslav to give them the province cost 0 dip. Same thing when you use the Horde CB of a vassalised Kazan on other Hordes (GH, Nogai, Uzbk), it costs 0 DIP aswell.

 

[nicechinos]

Thanks guys for your answers.



Really ? I can't find what that free settler is. Isn't it just the one from the Siberian Frontier NI ?

Also, expansion+quantity open up a policy that gives a settler, for a total of three.

By the way, if I transfer the control of a province I occupy to a vassal of mine, assuming that province was discounted by the wargoal, will I pay the full DIP point cost when I take it for my vassal ?

No dip cost if you/your vassal have a claim on that province which should be the case if we are speaking about wargoal.

 

[MiniaAr]

Yes, if you NF military. It depends how "competitive" the game is.

You can go something like expansion, influence, offensive, aristocratic, innovative, defensive, quantity, quality. Then you enact policies like

- +.5 traditions +1 leader fire (1 mil)
- +20% infantry combat ability

or even another 50% or 25% FL boost if needed (doubtful). Expansion full annex --> release to bring Asian vassals up to tech and Orthodoxize them (opening decisions that give them missionary strength), with reduced cost and faster annexation from influence. Then you just sit at 90 minimum AT with +2 leader fire, +2 leader shock, 10% discipline and 20% infantry combat with infantry cost massively reduced.

But you can just swap out expansion for religious too if you want, should make the opening faster since you get a good CB immediately. Military idea gouging like that will be obnoxiously cumbersome to overcome for anybody who doesn't do it.

I'm currently playing a Muscowy MP game, I took expansion first and I'm planning on a MIL group second, probably Offensive (the best one there is), even though Defensive would allow me to focus even more on my current strategy of letting my ennemies die in my territory before I counter-attack.
I'll ty the Expansion > Full annex strategy, release as orthodox vassal. This will work on any Horde with their capital in Asia right (Uzbeks, Oirat,...)?

Also, is Influence really that good? I could take it as second group, but I don't really mind annexing slower and for more DIP points.
The current player map: My big vassal is Kazan I use for the CB. I just won a war against Poland/Lithuania/Sweden and took two Finnish provinces. We basically stopped fighting this close war due to rebels everywhere in our territories. (year is 1484)

 

[Beagá]

For MP games things are probably different. In SP going Influence is nice if you want to also go Exploration or Expansion, as any colonial power will want diplo tech up to date and fill Exploration ASAP. Since the easiest path to crush Lithuania and Poland is to make them liberate countries for you to diplovassalize and feed, you will need tons of diplo to annex vassals, and the cheaper that is, the better.

 

[Freudia]

Can you really afford a MIL group first thing in MP though? There are Lithuanian, Swedish and Horde players all around you just waiting for you to get behind in tech .

Many groups houserule away the horde's ability to be relevant on the grounds that it didn't happen historically, so I doubt there'd be a horde player in this person's MP session anyways.

 

[herrmarisa]

Going for quantity as a nation with corresponding NIs is beyond my understanding.

 

[MiniaAr]

Many groups houserule away the horde's ability to be relevant on the grounds that it didn't happen historically, so I doubt there'd be a horde player in this person's MP session anyways.

Well, in our MP games we have a Golden Horde player, and there are no specific house rules in place for them not to colonise. Sure, our player got sidetracked by helping the Ottos against an early VEN/HUN/MAM/QAR coalition and Lithuania took Crimea from under him, but he's still there. (under the benevolent protection of the Grand Knyaz of Moscow, your's truly )

 

[Aethis]

I say grab expansion ideas second, you want to colonise into Siberia asap, increasing your income and manpower. Once you fill that group you have the insanely good CB to use against all those AI nations in Central Asia and the far East that you can crush.

Religion first to get everything stable back in Russia.

Then a military idea, probably defensive or offensive.

 

[LastSalian]

With the Tatar explosion madness and Orthodox events poping up infrequently, the strategy Exploration->Expansion will no longer work fine for a westernized Muscovy.

For a 1.8 westernized Muscovy, I guess I'd go Influence or Diplomatic first. Then Religious.

For a non-westernized Muscovy, I'd go Religious first, and then Defensive or Expansion depending on how comfortable you are fighting your wars.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

With the Tatar explosion madness and Orthodox events poping up infrequently, the strategy Exploration->Expansion will no longer work fine for a westernized Muscovy.

For a 1.8 westernized Muscovy, I guess I'd go Influence or Diplomatic first. Then Religious.

For a non-westernized Muscovy, I'd go Religious first, and then Defensive or Expansion depending on how comfortable you are fighting your wars.

I'd go expansion, influence, aristocratic, diplomatic. Full annex and release hordes to make them Orthodox (Nogai takes religious, as does Uzbek/Bukhara. Oirat takes humanist unfortunately but it's not hard for a Christian nation to convert right-culture low tax provinces that aren't Islamic anyway). Pressing the horde CB isn't a bad stopgap before you get expansion also. Later on as you're a bit more advanced full annex --> releasing a horde will boost its tech to yours and they'll get their -core cost NI. At this point even a westernized Russia can make short work of Ming via feeding 2 hordes, even if they're former hordes that have reformed. Influence allows them to contribute sound money and FL immediately in addition to making it cheaper to annex them.

PA takes forever to build but it will eventually and Christianity gets + strength decisions from tech too. Eventually with PA, decisions, and DotF you can blast through most of the actually difficult provinces to convert, or kick someone like LO into Orthodoxy and make them do it. Same thing if you go into Persian region; just feed Persia, Najd, or even Hejaz when they're Orthodox; all of them take religious ideas (as does Syria) and can easily convert even Mecca or Constantinople.

 

[-Malovane-]

Been playing some Eastern games since 1.8 - and Muscovy is always a favorite.

Religious is enormously useful as a first idea group. Convert and culture-convert the hordes. You can do this with all the dip you save from the Holy War CB.

For military ideas - I really do like Quantity for Muscovy. A lot of people trash it - but you're basically saving 20% on troop maintenance, and can field a much larger army (stacks with the -20% from Muscovy idea bonus, as well as the Treasury for a total of -60%!). Being able to dominate in several wars at once is pretty nice. On the domestic front, you save MP on buildings. If you want to spam buildings on 300 provinces, more money in the coffers due to cheap troops and less MP per building is quite useful. But it's usually the second military idea I choose.

Another overlooked idea for Muscovy is Aristocracy, which I usually end up taking second as far as Idea groups. You end up getting better, and cheaper, cavalry (and Eastern Cav is nice - even if you aren't Poland). Cheaper mil tech (with idea bonuses to tech, and this particular idea, you're looking at around -24% from taking this line IIRC). And some other little niceties (that 100% hostile core-cost makes it fairly unlikely you'll ever be attacked as Muscovy). About the only thing not worthwhile is the reduced War Exhaustion cost (with Quantity, your WE is unlikely to go into dangerous territory as Muscovy).

Religious->Aristocracy->Quantity. After this, your mil tech is behind your Western neighbors a bit (who shouldn't be a threat because you destroyed Lithuania/Poland early and often, right?), but not so much the neighboring hordes. With the idea and tech bonuses you get (you should be able to get roughly -50%), you come roaring back in tech in short time with a very large and powerful army.

After that, influence/diplo if you want to play with vassals. More military if you want to go insane with it.