Multiple badboy rankings?

[Galleblære]

An idea that has been playing in my mind is a that each nation has several badboy rankings, at the minimum two, but preferably three. My idea is that the badboy rankings reflect the difference in tolerance and acceptance of acts.

IE, if a Christian nation conquers and annexes a lot of muslim countries whilst lacking a casus belli, other christian nations woulndt take so much offense to this as muslim nations for instance.

So you have IE three badboy rankings:

"Christian" badboy
"Muslim" badboy
"Misc" badboy (for the rest)

So again, take the Ottomans, the christian nations will take offense if they start annexing their way into europe, and their "christian" BB will skyrocket, giving christian nations a CB etc. At the same time, their standings with the muslims doesn't change that much, since they dont have "access" to the Christian BB that the Ottomans have gained... Should they turn on muslim nations later, the muslim BB will go up..

What do people think? Would it be an improvement, or can other game mechanisms better model this?

 

[Registered]

Definitely more realistic that way. Although i would base it on region instead of religion. (Portugal would definitely care if the Ottomans increased their presence on the Arab Peninsula)

But perhaps it is too open for exploitation by the player. If there is such a thing as BB wars in EUIII the player culd, with little trouble, knock out each religion in succesion. Instead of having to deal with war on all fronts.

 

[Rich Oliver]

Yes sounds better.

Native Americans and Chinese should definintely not care what happens in Europe. I am not sure that American tribes should even react to aggression
against other tribes in North America, there wasn't much in the way of solidarity.

 

[unmerged(45754)]

Yes, regional badboy sounds much more realistic. Though it shouldn't just be a line and then STOP. I.e. it shouldn't be "badboy for the anatolia region" being 50 or so, and then balkans is only 4, and so nobody cares in the Balkans.

Rather, China should not care, or perhaps England. But the Balkans nations certainly should, as should the levant, etc. if you have badboy in anatolia.

 

[unmerged(10422)]

Isn't this already somewhat modeled by the negative effect a difference of religion has on the relations between two nations?

 

[Registered]

Isn't this already somewhat modeled by the negative effect a difference of religion has on the relations between two nations?

Not really. Say you are the Ottomans. If you annex some minor anatolian natoin this will piss off your eastern neighbours, and this is right and proper. Howver, it pisses of France and Austria as well, and in equal measure. Which is odd to say the least. So if anexing that nation pushes you over a certain BB limit, it could be the Mameluks that try to take you down a peg or two. But it miht as well be the Papal states. This is unrealistic, but perhaps neccecary to keep the player in check.

 

[Stingray]

There should also be a modifier for "fear" so f.ex. vassals could be kept in line either by good relations, or by "fear" of the master country.

 

[Brownbeard]

Talked about it with a fellow forum member recently. A must have.

Here's my suggestion:

Three badboy counters:

1st for your own religion (IE. Catholic for Spain)
2nd for other religions in your religious group (IE. Protestant, Reformed and Orthodox for Spain)
3rd for other religious group(Sunni, Shia, Hindu, Confucian, Buddhist)

I do not see why the Christian world should hate Trebizond for wiping out the Turks to restore the Byzantine Empire or why the Muslim world should hate Ottomans for annexing Bosnia or Serbia.

Perhaps 1st and 3rd could be in some kind of inverse relationship. As you increase 3rd, your 1st drops a bit(Sole Defender of Faith)

 

[unmerged(10422)]

Not really. Say you are the Ottomans. If you annex some minor anatolian natoin this will piss off your eastern neighbours, and this is right and proper. Howver, it pisses of France and Austria as well, and in equal measure. Which is odd to say the least. So if anexing that nation pushes you over a certain BB limit, it could be the Mameluks that try to take you down a peg or two. But it miht as well be the Papal states. This is unrealistic, but perhaps neccecary to keep the player in check.

Okay, yeah, I see your point. That's actually a pretty good idea, although it would allow a ruler in a relatively weak region to conquer to his heart's content without it effecting his relations with the more powerful nations. Say, for instance, Lithuania preying on the Russian states. It could become a monster of an empire, but still have rosy relations with all the German states and Poland.

Maybe if your badboy for the region reaches a certain point, it will start effecting your other badboys... or maybe, say, every 10 points in one badboy will add 1 to your others?

 

[Registered]

Maybe if your badboy for the region reaches a certain point, it will start effecting your other badboys... or maybe, say, every 10 points in one badboy will add 1 to your others?

Something like that yes. Balancing that one might take a few patches though.

Okay, yeah, I see your point. That's actually a pretty good idea, although it would allow a ruler in a relatively weak region to conquer to his heart's content without it effecting his relations with the more powerful nations. Say, for instance, Lithuania preying on the Russian states. It could become a monster of an empire, but still have rosy relations with all the German states and Poland.

I'm not sure how thrilled Poland would be to have a Lithuanian juggernaut on it's doorstep.

 

[InnocentIII]

Multiple BadBoy ratings creates more complexity and confusion, however, and makes EU3 less acessible to new players.

IMHO they should keep the BadBoy system they now have, but make the exact number available without looking at a savegame. I would also give little or no BB points for non-European conquests, or at least conquests that do not take provinces from non-Europeans or wars with non-Europeans.

 

[Symmetry]

I don't think it would add that much to any confusion, after all I'm sure that most of us found badboy very confusing anyways before we found these forums and the badboy FAQ.

For myself, though, I think the idea of breaking up badboy by region doesn't go far enough in some ways. I'd much rather see various types of badboy depending on what exactly you do. So if you have a lot of religious enemy conquest badboy and no same-religion conquest badboy the other catholic nations would still like you, but if you break a peace treaty with Morocco then you'll get treaty breaker badboy which makes other nations less likely to form alliances with you and loans cost more interest.

It seems to me that four or five self-explanatory different types of badboy would be just as easy to understand as the current system so long as each has simple and well-defined effects that show up on tooltips, as well as simple and well-defined causes that show up on the tooltip when hover over your badboy listing.

 

[Shuriken]

I like the idea of independant badboy ratings based on both region and religion. I also think that you should have a base badboy that goes up much slower, but is the minimum that everyone thinks about you, to keep completely exploiting this altogether. However I think the regions should be rather large, making it difficult to conquer the entire region before bb wars would start. It would also be nice if they were dynamic. For example, Germany would be "regional" for Britian, and Poland would be regional for Germany, but Poland would not be regional for Britian.

 

[unmerged(10422)]

I'm not sure how thrilled Poland would be to have a Lithuanian juggernaut on it's doorstep.

Yeah, that was my point. If Lithuania was conquering territory outside of Poland's region, and becoming a monster, it wouldn't have any effect on Poland's view of Lithuania. It was my example of what would be a bad thing.

 

[Shuriken]

Yeah, that was my point. If Lithuania was conquering territory outside of Poland's region, and becoming a monster, it wouldn't have any effect on Poland's view of Lithuania. It was my example of what would be a bad thing.

Did France think badly of Austria when it grew as powerful as it did? Did Spain care when Brandenburg grew into the monster it was to become?

 

[unmerged(10422)]

Did France think badly of Austria when it grew as powerful as it did? Did Spain care when Brandenburg grew into the monster it was to become?

France did, actually. French policy for centuries was shaped by trying to contain the power of Hapsburg Austria. And Spain isn't in the same region as Brandenburg, really. Poland, on the other hand, borders Lithuania.

 

[Shuriken]

France did, actually. French policy for centuries was shaped by trying to contain the power of Hapsburg Austria. And Spain isn't in the same region as Brandenburg, really. Poland, on the other hand, borders Lithuania.

My way, though harder to program, would take care of what you mentioned.

 

[Fawr]

I like the idea as a suppliment to the normal badboy. I think that if Spain does get too powerful conquering America then countries in Europe will begin to care, but not that quickly. So make your total BB = 1/10 of the sum of your specific BB ratings.

I would also do it based on religion instead of based on region. If the British take chunks of south america and are threatening to make it Prodestant then the French should be worried.

 

[unmerged(6303)]

I seem to remember the BB system was introduced in a patch to EU1, since the normal diplomatic relations system wasn't doing it's job properly. I think it would be better to scrap BB and use the relations.

 

[Brownbeard]

France did, actually. French policy for centuries was shaped by trying to contain the power of Hapsburg Austria. And Spain isn't in the same region as Brandenburg, really. Poland, on the other hand, borders Lithuania.

The French were de-facto protestants since they were not part of Team Catholic(Team Habsburg).

So:

1st for your own religion (IE. Catholic for Spain)
2nd for other religions in your religious group (IE. Protestant, Reformed Orthodox and the French for Spain)
3rd for other religious group(Sunni, Shia, Hindu, Confucian, Buddhist)

J/K