Multiculturalism is way too OP with no drawbacks

[Aquae Sulis]

• Pops and IGs just don't care about culture. They blindly want less or more discrimination regardless of the state of your country. There's no movements for relaxing laws if you have a large discriminated percentage of population.

In my opinion there could be some solution, but the whole system really needs another look in the future, it's just not very good.

Agree with all the points but this one is the most pertinent. No one cares that such an enormous change has been made and there's no inertia to integrating these pops. Day 1 and you workforce has grown massively without issue.

Ultimately, cultural policy is a modifier. Unlock pops for loss of loyalty. It's a difficult area to handle sensitively so I'm hopeful but not expecting anything more than tweaks to the modifiers.

 

[Ir0nSlug]

Agree. The corollary to that is that it makes improving public health and work safety investment useless. I just use whatever law makes my IGs happy and let the investment to 1. Why trying to max your natural growth when you have hordes of migrants that are happy to take the jobs? Also, never having workforce shortage means wages will stay (relatively) low, and buildings will make huge profits so you'll have tons of investment funds to make tons of buildings to make goods cheap and still get an excellent SoI. Multiculturalism is always OP, but as a pure capitalist build, it's jesus second coming. Workforce also means soldiers and conscripts, so it's also good for any militarist build. Weirdly enough, it only may cause problem in egalitarist welfare states. And if the workforce benefits weren't enough, it massively unradicalize pops.

I recommend anyone that disagrees to try a natural growth build, it takes a lot more efforts and resources for way less results.

 

[dr_AllCOM3]

Multiculturalism‘s overpoweredness diminishes any sort of cultural tensions your country may have, in a dramatically ahistorical way.

The game is supposed to be ahistorical. No railroading and such.

 

[Kultakala Siika]

Agree with all the points but this one is the most pertinent. No one cares that such an enormous change has been made and there's no inertia to integrating these pops. Day 1 and you workforce has grown massively without issue.

Ultimately, cultural policy is a modifier. Unlock pops for loss of loyalty. It's a difficult area to handle sensitively so I'm hopeful but not expecting anything more than tweaks to the modifiers.

I think one relatively neutral way to implement this would be to introduce two new traits to all pops: languages spoken and tolerant attitude. Pops not having same language would cause significant friction in production facilities. Assimilation would proceed in two steps: first, the immigrant pops learn primary culture's language (ie gain a new trait language trait in addition to their own EDIT.). This could be fairly fast process helped by literacy rate and education institutions (maybe one year for each pop), so it wouldn't be gigantic hindrance but still an immediate challenge to manage for players who want increase their population by immigration. Actual assimilation to gain cultural traits would need to be much slower (it should take one generation, at least 20 years per pop) and require Petite Bourgeois to be all but suppressed.

The cultural differences should also have friction producing radicals in Pops that have not the Tolerant trait. Non-Tolerant Pops would have much increased Radicals generation from non-primary culture or non-heritage Pops in same state. Pops gaining Tolerant / Discrimanatory attitude trait should be contingent with interlocking Education and Citizenship laws and IGs the Pops support. Public Schools and Multiculturalism -> Education makes Pops gain Tolerant. Public Schools + cultural / racial exclusion / national supremacy -> Education makes Pops gain Discriminatory attitude. Private schools would make education effects neutral, Religious schooling depending on Church attitude. Pops that support Intelligentsia gain Tolerancy easier, Pops that support Petite Bourgeois lose it and gain Disciminatory attidue easier. Rest of IGs could be dependent on IG leaders, ie RNG.

 

[Lazy Sorcerer]

For the same reason we dogmatically tear down the landowners. Those rulers WERE landowners (and industrialists).
Basically our interests are incredibly ahistorical being "the good of the nation" rather than "the good of our class and our pocketbook".

We don't benefit from racism against the Irish, which like the English gentry did. Because if the working class becomes powerful we shrug and transition to a consumer economy instead of lose all our power.

As long as we are playing AS a nation we can't really represent the reasons their ruling classes didn't want power to transfer, we even encourage it.

And the result of this is a schizophrenic optimal strat where you build a multicultural social democracy with coops and rights for all, but because the player still wants to expand, the same country also ends with a huge millitary-industrial complex and starting wars of conquest and subjugation all over the world.

The former is often even in pursuit of the latter.

 

[Richard Dolder]

I think one relatively neutral way to implement this would be to introduce two new traits to all pops: languages spoken and tolerant attitude. Pops not having same language would cause significant friction in production facilities. Assimilation would proceed in two steps: first, the immigrant pops learn primary culture's language (ie gain a new trait language trait in addition to their own EDIT.).

You want more slowdown?

And the result of this is a schizophrenic optimal strat where you build a multicultural social democracy with coops and rights for all, but because the player still wants to expand, the same country also ends with a huge millitary-industrial complex and starting wars of conquest and subjugation all over the world.

The former is often even in pursuit of the latter.

I agree, and end results are most important.
This is a huge flaw.

Thoughts and solution
-Rename multicultural cosmopolitan since it's much more melting pot than vegetable pot with the assimilation. (do this anyways.)
-Ban conquer state war goals with primary culture accepted pops. (liberate state, unify country, liberate peoples, puppet, change regime are all fine.)

 

[Kultakala Siika]

You want more slowdown?

What slowdown? In my Sweden play I receive hundreds of thousands "Heritage Europe" Pops migrating to my high SoL Svealand (both my Customs Unions and Migration Targets), I can barely keep up building industry to employ them all. All accepted cultures, and half of them have already converted Protestant. And only change I made was switch to Racial Segregation from National Supremacy, I still have Migration Controls / Freedom of Conscience.

EDIT. Or did you mean the computational slowdown from exploding small Pops, not assimilation slowdown? That could be alleviated by having languages not breaking Pops into further categories by language within same country (or its incorporated states). Let all immigrant Sorbs gain Swedish language after short cooldown. Computational load is then increased only by constant because the game already models the immigrated Pops anyway.

 

[Richard Dolder]

EDIT. Or did you mean the computational slowdown from exploding small Pops, not assimilation slowdown? That could be alleviated by having languages not breaking Pops into further categories by language within same country (or its incorporated states). Let all immigrant Sorbs gain Swedish language after short cooldown. Computational load is then increased only by constant because the game already models the immigrated Pops anyway.

Meant computational slowdown because i definitely didn't expect someone suggesting "cultures pick up languages as part of the assimilation process" to say "yeah it applies to the entire nation, we don't want to crash the game here.". I was thinking you were imagining like PoPs slooowwwlllyyy adding the language not "Swedes in your country now speak german!"

Sorry.

 

[Kultakala Siika]

Meant computational slowdown because i definitely didn't expect someone suggesting "cultures pick up languages as part of the assimilation process" to say "yeah it applies to the entire nation, we don't want to crash the game here.". I was thinking you were imagining like PoPs slooowwwlllyyy adding the language not "Swedes in your country now speak german!"

Sorry.

Well I sort of was until you pointed it out ... but if one were to rework the assimilation mechanics, reworking it to some computational savings wouldn't hurt.

And still, in my suggestion, the time until "Swedes in your country speak German" fires should depend on education and other stuff player needs to manage. And then assimilating the German speaking Swedes (?) further shouldn't be too easy problem to solve. (They are now literate in German, thus politically active and care more about discriminatory attitude of other Pops in the country?), so you'd have two timescales to work with keep immigration play more challenging.

 

[$ilent_$trider]

While I find the idea interesting, the game will be even more slow with the further fragmentation of emigrant POPs now either having only their native language and also their new home’s language. And just imagine if said POP decides to emigrate AGAIN.

 

[doubleskulls]

(Did anyone do it pre-1936 except the Soviets?)

Why do you think the Soviets were multicultural? I don't recollect much empowerment for the non-European minorities.

 

[Sagrifizius]

Why do you think the Soviets were multicultural? I don't recollect much empowerment for the non-European minorities.

Early Soviet ideology advocated for ethnic self-determination in their respective republics with heavy state support for the respective culture, think quotas, language laws, etc.
This is of course nowhere near what multiculturalism in game represents, but the whole concept is anachronistic for the era. The most tolerant option would be (ethnic) self-government, i.e. what the early Soviets did (as long as you were an orthodox ML nation, of course), hence the confusion.

Edit: There is a relatively well known book on that topic, "The Affirmative Action Empire", I haven't personally read it, though, so I can't vouch for it.

 

[Dr. Crabnipples]

They should have sub cultures to assimulate pops into. for example USA has afro american? If i get immigrants into germany from africa, india, china, instead of them magically changing ethnic groups, create new sub-cultures like Afro-german, Indian-German, and Asian-Germany or something like that (Placeholder names) These sub cultures would have their own radicals and suchs

 

[Kyoumen]

Why do you think the Soviets were multicultural? I don't recollect much empowerment for the non-European minorities.

Korenizatsiia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

There was some, and later on there was also an emphasis on socialist brotherhood in contrast to Western racism (notably with African black students invited to attend Soviet universities). Lenin also abolished antisemitic laws from the Tsarist period. The Stalin period wasn't great for this (to say the least), but it's a more mixed record before and after.

 

[Richard Dolder]

They should have sub cultures to assimulate pops into. for example USA has afro american? If i get immigrants into germany from africa, india, china, instead of them magically changing ethnic groups, create new sub-cultures like Afro-german, Indian-German, and Asian-Germany or something like that (Placeholder names) These sub cultures would have their own radicals and suchs

A) Slowdown.
B) Considering this is the period where we invented the concept of race....no?

 

[EquilinT]

i consider the strain it puts on my computer a major drawback.

 

[Poipoichan]

Many artists during the Renaissance presented ancient Romans' images in a 15th-century style.
I mean it's a common phenomenon. Some believe that multiculturalism is excellent today so they assume things are the same in the 19th century.
I'm afraid you will never have the penalty you asked for.

 

[Fulmen]

I'd just delete it from the game altogether. The way it's modelled (as a no-brainer utopia) is completely unrealistic, and you can't really even mod it to be realistic.

 

[FleetingRain]

The Intelligentsia should be against both Ethnostate and Multiculturalism. In fact, I think Multiculturalism should only be available by specific, event/lategame Ideologies.

 

[$ilent_$trider]

It boils down to this. What is the point of multiculturalism? To allow immigrants to have political franchise, by giving them citizenship at a certain point.
So, there might be some balancing act into all this but I would make it so you accept any culture independent of trait, overall loyalty of home cultures gets reduced but you also get faster assimilation.
This would also help in reducing micro POPs in your states reducing computational power.