Multicultural Wehrmacht & Waffen SS

[Zaku]

He is making overarching and outlandish comments about the SS being terrible.

Well they were quite terrible to be honest, considering the equipment they got. They had a few battle hardened units, but most of them were useless in combat. The elite of elites SS is just a myth, army units performed better overall.

. Thus, he must prove this

He did. Your only point on the other hand is "I have history degree".

since it is not what has been published by many historians

Many historians is how much? 3? 5? 10?

Think about such people as Wittmann, or Wunsche - did they only do well because of their equipment? Did German units outperform American, British and Russian units because of their equipment? In the same way, you can not attribute better performance by SS units only to equipment. Equipment is one thing, dedication and intelligence is quite another.

Are you implying that the avarage SS grunt was more intelligent the the avarage US, British, or Soviet grunt? Or that they didn't have officers with the same level of intelligence as Wittmans? I don't understand your point.

 

[Chat]

He is making overarching and outlandish comments about the SS being terrible. Thus, he must prove this - since it is not what has been published by many historians. I don't think this guy would be published, in fact...he would not. One can not just call whole groups of people brainwashed and think it will be taken seriously.

He attempted to insult me in multiple ways, but I won't do the same. I only point out how he paints a broad brush with his military history.

If you yourself would like to learn about the combat formations of the Waffen - SS, read some published material. Don't go by some debate on a forum.

But he has at least provided some level of backing behind his arguments.

I am reading up on the Waffen SS at the moment, but that's something that takes time, and I certainly haven't read enough to have a fully formed opinion on the matter. There are certainly references to the Waffen SS being elite, but there are also references to their performance being anything but exemplary and the only thing really elite about the majority of the SS divisions was their self-perception. I don't know nearly enough about about their actions to have any idea of whether what appears to be a considerably higher KIA/MIA rate compared to the Wehrmacht is because of the reckless aggression that some sources mention, or if it was because the SS fought in more brutal battles where other divisions would have fared worse given the same equipment.

 

[Vukodav]

I could actually create a huge post with at least 10 reference points to any claim (I did not make things up, I had to read it somewhere first to say it here). All are actual published works the whole world uses. But I think that admin got a bit agitated so I won't push my luck.

But I think he would not mind if I say a few things about Waffen division that operated on in the area of my home country. Mainly, 7th, 13th, 21st, 23rd divisions and 500th Paratrooper battalion.

7th SS never had a single successful mission. Himmler himself came to Serbia to oversee the division's formation. Its first mission, Operation "Mihailović", was to capture the guerrilla leader and crush his forces. Out of 2000 fighters, they killed only 12 and the whole group relocated and continued the rebellion.

Avakumović, Dr. Jovan (1968). Mihailović according to German documents

Later that year, a whole corps escaped, the Rasina Corps. They were equally bad at dealing with the communist resistance. During the so-called 4th and 5th Enemy offensive with 10 times as much forces and complete encirclement of the communist resistance territory (who were nothing but peasants with old rifles), the resistance outfoxed them and escaped... again. By the end of 1943 the division was so battered it had to be reformed.

During the Operation Rösselsprung, while fielding 2.5 times as much forces as guerrilla fighters, they suffered the same amount of casualties and the High Command got away... AGAIN! During that operation, the "elite" 500th SS Parachute Battalion armed with the most advanced weapons (FG-42 and others) suffered 80% casualty rate and that was the only time the SS actually dared to make a parachute unit. 600th SS was never used as a parachute unit.

Jerzy Woydyłło: Desant na Drwar. MON, a.a.O. 1965. (polnische Monografie)
Otto Kumm: VORWÄRTS, PRINZ EUGEN! - Geschichte der 7. SS-Freiwilligen-Division "Prinz Eugen"
IZVEŠTAJ ŠTABA 1. PUKA »BRANDENBURG« OD 19. JUNA 1944. KOMANDI 15. BRDSKOG ARMIJSKOG KORPUSA O ISKUSTVIMA STEČENIM U OPERACIJI »RESELŠPRUNG«

13th SS mutinied before it ever saw combat, during training. It too could not deal with the guerrilla fighters when it was fielded in 1944. They had nine operations during 1944, enemy was always one step ahead. They played the game of cat and mouse and lost. When a decisive conflict did happen, casualties were around the same number for both sides.

Lepre, George (1997). Himmler's Bosnian Division: The Waffen-SS Handschar Division 1943–1945

By the end of 1944 division begun to shatter and many deserted.

21st SS had only two engagements before being disbanded. First one in Montenegro in the first half of 1944 where they, according to Neubacher (head of German foreign ministry for the Balkan region), performed poorly. After that, it was placed to safeguard Trepca mining complex. As soon as partisans showed up, the division shattered. Army Group E declared that, according to its performance, the division had no military value what so ever.

Williamson, Gordon; Andrew, Stephen (2003) page 38. There is a whole book online but I cannot post a link as the book has swastikas and SS symbols. Look it up.

After those two miserable engagements the division was disbanded.

23rd SS never saw any action and was disbanded.

So there you go, a short look on those famous SS units that outperformed everyone else, beaten to a pulp by a ragtag band of peasants without heavy weapons, with old rifles and no armor.

We could go in detail about every single division, but who has the time? Neither I have the time to write here nor you to read. Historical sources are given to anyone who wants to look it all up. Just because Michael Wittmann got good at tank busting after 6 years of war and best machines of war one could field at the time does not mean that 38 divisions of the Waffen SS were elite units. First two were, but they got that status only by the end of the war. As people have said in most cases Wehrmacht outperformed Waffen SS and had less casualties overall. With the attrition rate of SS divisions and the expenses they were making in the terms of supply and weapons, they actually brought more harm than benefit to the overall German struggle during the WWII.

This only takes into account their battle performance. Their "other duties" and their effects will not be discussed here. And this is my last post on this subject. I hope admin does not close the thread because of the history talk.

 

[hkrommel]

Yeah the whole emphasis on politically correct recruits with a penchant for fanaticism did nothing to help the fighting ability of SS formations, it just limited the pool of available recruits and made them lose out on potential talent.

 

[bruebottom]

Now, there are no SS units in the game. You can make them if you want - make a template that has a higher number of soldiers/brigades (SS divisions were larger than a standard infantry division) and prioritize them for upgrades and supply. I am sure someone will make the SS counter so you can see them in the field easy. And you can name them any way you want.

I think that big mistake of mods (like Black Ice) and sometimes Vanilla game are free units. You either do something minor or nothing at all and you get free units. So I think no, there should be no special mechanics for you to get SS units (or any other units). For expeditionary force (where enemy gives you the units to use as you see fit) there is a way, foreign volunteers too (where those who sent them controls them), and mixed divisions you get from a occupied manpower.

For extra special cases like Indian soldiers, an event for additional manpower is quite enough and closer to history.

The first HOI IV mod I make will have all 38 SS divisions. I have already written up a rough draft of the templates that I plan on using. There is over 90 templates for this project, and I plan on showing the evolution of the SS formation over time. This means that for any given SS division a change in the template will occur based on a historical time line.

Hopefully, a modder will be able to create code that can change the templates (just as a player would). But also edit the names of the divisions. SS divisions not only had formation changes but also name changes. They did not start out as numbered divisions and it was only around the 9. SS Division that the divisions where numbered. This will result in all the division below the 9. SS Division needing its historical number. So, if I can edit the division name I will create the events/NF to aid the player in keeping a historical flow.

One strong point of HOI IV is that modders should not have to remove the division from the game to apply a change and there should be no awkward flow of the game. I hope that I can do more than this; however, I have to wait until more is said about the game files.

To make an argument as to why there should no unique units in the game for the simply reason that a player can make them with the new game mechanics that are in HOI IV is short sighted. Every one who ultimately plays HOI IV can do a quick Wiki search for any unit formation and apply that info in the game, but why do that when a mod will make it so much easier to have a historical experience.

 

[hkrommel]

Every one who ultimately plays HOI IV can do a quick Wiki search for any unit formation and apply that info in the game, but why do that when a mod will make it so much easier to have a historical experience.

Because many of those units were formed as a result of historical conditions that will not arise when a human is playing the game. As soon as you unpause the game, history ends.

 

[bruebottom]

Because many of those units were formed as a result of historical conditions that will not arise when a human is playing the game. As soon as you unpause the game, history ends.

I'm sorry, I should have used the phrase 'immersive experience'.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

What constitutes an elite unit?

Fancy uniform and cool counter of course.
I should have said "elite" units, i am well aware of what you said

 

[TheRomanRuler]

You mean multi ethnic not multicultural.

I guess that is more accurate - but considering muslims of SS were allowed to have their own religious ceremonies etc, i don`t know if multi cultural is unfair. Foreign volunteers of SS certainly had different cultures, just becouse they were in German army does not change that. Strongest units of Chinese army at beginning of WW2 were trained by Germans, but they were still Chinese.
Are both accurate?

 

[TheRomanRuler]

There were 3,000 total in the Free India Legion. Is that really significant enough to represent?

You miss an important point: Indian Army of WW2 had 2.5 million volunteers, most of them joined becouse they believe that would be best way to get independence from Great Britain. But what if they would have believed otherwise, what if they would have believed joining Axis powers would be best way for independence? Theoretically, Free India Legion could be 2.5 million strong.

 

[Secret Master]

You miss an important point: Indian Army of WW2 had 2.5 million volunteers, most of them joined becouse they believe that would be best way to get independence from Great Britain. But what if they would have believed otherwise, what if they would have believed joining Axis powers would be best way for independence? Theoretically, Free India Legion could be 2.5 million strong.

I guess I would think that if that many Indians were interested in fighting Britain directly to achieve independence, that they wouldn't be in German formations anyway.

I'd assume that they would either be modeled as partisans/rebels, or as the standing army of a newly independent India that "loans" those troops to Germany via expeditionary forces.

I take your point that there could be more granularity to the system, though.

 

[Chromos]

Waffen-SS DIV != Waffen-SS DIV.
I guess all know that by now.

But the whole topic is very "tricky" to just claim all were "bad" or all where "elite".
One point about SS Divisions many forget is, that they were all volunteers up to late in the war. Just because SS was not allowed to draft, just because that was the realm of Wehrmacht.
(Deal made with Nazi party in the years before, SA..)
So as recruits were harder to get by with th eongoing war, the SS recruited whereever they could get people. A part that Wehrmacht would of course not do.
Waffen-SS DIV also did not all get the newest stuff first, but diverted different what they got. The first units brought up their own gear like motor bikes and weapons from WW1 to figtht.. Thats more like Militia as an Army formation. That changed later of course a bit. The Partisan fighting units were not that good equiped at all too. And Waffen-SS did try to resue all they can get too boost their units. CoH player might remember the Hotchkis-tank. What an "über-tank" for the Waffen-SS..
Some DIV got better training and also weapons. And the "better" SS-Divs also where bigger in manpower as usual Wehrmacht on paper.

To understand SS-Div better, people should not forget that the SS was a "state in the state" and Himmler was after getting an own territory in Europe as core SS-country.
The SS was constantly fighting for ressources/power within the nazi Reich. And in many records of Wehrmacht officiers you can read about the dislike of the Waffen SS as the fighting branch of that "state/organisation" SS. After all the Wehrmacht made the deal with the nazi party to obey Hitler in case the SA will de dropped back in the days(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives), and now they had nearly the another military organisation next to them with the SS. But and maybe because of that, they used the better SS-Divs many times for dangerous tasks on the battlefield. Because of the special status, Waffen-SS didn't needed to obey Wehrmacht command if they didn't wanted. There was noting a Wehrmacht General could do about it expect to ask Himmler or Hitler. Most times they followed the orders of Wehrmacht though.

As a rule of thumb, you could say that from the battle reports, generally the formations with better equipment like Panzer, Mot/Mech, were the better units of the Waffen-SS.
But other smaller formation fought also very brave, while others clearly did not.

To have foreign volunteers in the game, it could be like before with exp. forces. E. g. in the case of India for UK with an ingame mechanic.
Spanish Legion is a good example too. Or the many other units that fought for the UK.
Events could create them aswell if HoI4 is not very much different from HoI3 here. So I see no problem here. Same for the various foreign Waffen-SS Divs, can alle be created via events and also likely changed via events.
In case of foreign people fighting for others, this would be revolt/partisan mechanic.
Defecting to Axis/Allies soil to form units, that was so rare that an event chain could do it. How much would you create that way anyway? Like we see in history, even the volunters of Waffen-SS were most times not that numerous to form regular DIV with 15k+ soldiers like the Wiking-Div.
I can understand that a button somwhere, that is called " ask for volunteers" might be nice, but I doubt that we'll get such.
Easiest "modding" would maybe an event chain or adding a national focus wich triggers the search for volunteers.
"Activate the Gurkhas" national focus for UK.. Around 250k men dedicated to fight extra..

 

[kreissig]

But he has at least provided some level of backing behind his arguments.

What source did he quote? Not one that I saw. That is the first thing that must be done making an historical argument. If these ideas are not his - as he says in his post after yours - then he is plagiarizing, which totally discounts any historical validity, because he did not give credit to the person who did the fact finding.

Beyond that, if you have ever taken a law class or a class on historical inquiry - yes, law and history disciplines are very similar - you would first learn not to make broad sweeping comments at all.

I have read much about the Waffen SS, up to and including actual battle accounts in German - which I'm not sure the person in question is capable of doing - but I still don't call myself an "expert" or go on a forum making statements like his.

You will also not ever, ever see a historian saying "I know more history than you" - that is a statement a child would make.

At the beginning of all this I only mentioned that the 12th was a "late war fomation" since he says they were all a disaster, and his rebuttal was that they went up against "green" troops - I assume he means the Canadians and British - and that they took high casualties, then he gives some figures (that were undoccumented - but that's beside this point).

He must know that the 12th was made up of very young men with some seasoned commander, so it was quite "green" itself.

The Germans invented and enacted a war doctrine called Blitzkreig that would by nature incur higher casualty rates because of its bold nature. So spouting that the 12th had high casualties is not a valid reason to say they were not good at what they did. How many Germans died on the Ostfront? But how many casualties did they inflict on the Soviets?

Unlike say the American Superior Firepower doctrine that was more of a grinding type of warfare that relied on virtually unlimited supply of material, which the US could provide.

Germany lost due to lack of material superiority, not because they were a "disaster" as this guy claims. No historian writes the things he writes. But you, and whoever else can believe what he writes, or do some research yourself.

One really good documentation on the Red Army as it faced the Germans is in the Stackpole series called "Hitler's Nemesis". This guy got detailed records on Soviet war production and its pretty eye-opening about their material superiority. Best of all....its in English!

 

[Vukodav]

OK, I think we have ourselves a sockpuppet here.

Also, one must remember that SS units achieved better combat records in many cases - especially in the schwerpunkt Ost - than their Wher counterparts. This understanding justifies SS counters for a game having different stats than that of the Whermacht. As has been done in board games of the past.

For someone who claims to be a German with a history degree I just find it funny how he always types "Whermacht" instead of "Wehrmacht" and cannot name anything but three Waffen SS divisions in his talks. I understand what a typo is... but how many times do you have to make that "typo" for it to stop being a typo and becomes a mistake? Somehow, I think that is a mistake a German historian would not make.

The Germans invented and enacted a war doctrine called Blitzkreig

The very notion that he calls Blitzkrieg a doctrine is fishy at best. The term itself was never used by Germans, nor was there anything about it in German training manual. Even high ranking German officers that survived the war, like Kurt Student and Franz Halder, said that there was no such thing as a Blitzkrieg concept, ever. No one today calls Blitzkrieg a doctrine, that myth was busted a long time ago.

And when initial made up stories were proven to be false, all of a sudden he became a German, who read German documents, and who has a degree in history. Convenient for someone who doesn't even know how the German Army was called during WWII.

Also, if a so called Blitzkrieg doctrine was the thing in question... now come other Wehrmacht units did not benefit? You just stated that Waffen SS outperformed other Wehrmacht, Allied and Soviet units because of the Blitzkrieg. That is an interesting thing to say. Well, I guess Wehrmacht used something else and performed better because of it.

How many Germans died on the Ostfront? But how many casualties did they inflict on the Soviets?

As far as military goes, the kill ratio was 1:1.3 in Axis favor. Source, Grigory Kvirosheyev's official study. Here, look it up: Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century ISBN 1-85367-280-7, and yes it is in English. That actually ain't that much, considering the surprise attack in 1941. The rest are civilian deaths and I agree - there Germans did inflict casualties, especially those Waffen SS units.

And let us one more bust that myth about 12th SS. It was an armored division, in a great defensive position. Who's members might be young (18-19-20 year old), but let me just point out that they have been in military style training for the most of their lives. And they did do well... when facing infantry and parachute formations. As soon as they, as armored formation, faced another armored formation it became clear just how superior they were... not.

So all we have here is a German historian who doesn't know how to write in German, goes against everything that German officers and historians have said, can't talk about anything other than 2-3 divisions while neglecting the rest 35-36 that actually were a bloody disaster (for just a few of them I named six published works)... I call sockpuppet here.

And a fellow academic citizen of the world - plagiarizing means I claimed someone's work for myself. Which I never did. From the start I've said that info comes from other sources - I could not make things up. Historians' info usually comes from other sources you know, they do not make it up. And when the question arose what sources, I gladly provided full footnote. Six of 'em for three Waffen SS divisions.

I am so sorry for not having enough time to compile a complete work on all 38 divisions and provide footnotes for all of them - but that would be a bit too much for a forum anyway. When that amount of work is put in compiling a list of historical records, that usually goes out as a published paper. I guess you will have to satisfy yourself with just a fraction concerning 7th, 13th, 21st, 23rd SS divisions and 500th paratrooper battalion.

I am sorry for posting another comment, but I got accused for plagiarism and that is one of the biggest insults in academic circles so I had to answer. For a sockpuppet to accuse someone for plagiarism is a new low I guess.

 

[kreissig]

For someone who claims to be a German with a history degree I just find it funny how he always types "Whermacht" instead of "Wehrmacht" and cannot name anything but three

Ja, es tut mir sehr leid fur dieses kleiner fehler. Aber das hat ganz und gar kein zu tun mit Ihrer fehler!

 

[kreissig]

OK, I think we have ourselves a sockpuppet here.



For someone who claims to be a German with a history degree I just find it funny how he always types "Whermacht" instead of "Wehrmacht" and cannot name anything but three Waffen SS divisions in his talks. I understand what a typo is... but how many times do you have to make that "typo" for it to stop being a typo and becomes a mistake? Somehow, I think that is a mistake a German historian would not make.



The very notion that he calls Blitzkrieg a doctrine is fishy at best. The term itself was never used by Germans, nor was there anything about it in German training manual. Even high ranking German officers that survived the war, like Kurt Student and Franz Halder, said that there was no such thing as a Blitzkrieg concept, ever. No one today calls Blitzkrieg a doctrine, that myth was busted a long time ago.

And when initial made up stories were proven to be false, all of a sudden he became a German, who read German documents, and who has a degree in history. Convenient for someone who doesn't even know how the German Army was called during WWII.

Also, if a so called Blitzkrieg doctrine was the thing in question... now come other Wehrmacht units did not benefit? You just stated that Waffen SS outperformed other Wehrmacht, Allied and Soviet units because of the Blitzkrieg. That is an interesting thing to say. Well, I guess Wehrmacht used something else and performed better because of it.



As far as military goes, the kill ratio was 1:1.3 in Axis favor. Source, Grigory Kvirosheyev's official study. Here, look it up: Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century ISBN 1-85367-280-7, and yes it is in English. That actually ain't that much, considering the surprise attack in 1941. The rest are civilian deaths and I agree - there Germans did inflict casualties, especially those Waffen SS units.

And let us one more bust that myth about 12th SS. It was an armored division, in a great defensive position. Who's members might be young (18-19-20 year old), but let me just point out that they have been in military style training for the most of their lives. And they did do well... when facing infantry and parachute formations. As soon as they, as armored formation, faced another armored formation it became clear just how superior they were... not.

So all we have here is a German historian who doesn't know how to write in German, goes against everything that German officers and historians have said, can't talk about anything other than 2-3 divisions while neglecting the rest 35-36 that actually were a bloody disaster (for just a few of them I named six published works)... I call sockpuppet here.

And a fellow academic citizen of the world - plagiarizing means I claimed someone's work for myself. Which I never did. From the start I've said that info comes from other sources - I could not make things up. Historians' info usually comes from other sources you know, they do not make it up. And when the question arose what sources, I gladly provided full footnote. Six of 'em for three Waffen SS divisions.

I am so sorry for not having enough time to compile a complete work on all 38 divisions and provide footnotes for all of them - but that would be a bit too much for a forum anyway. When that amount of work is put in compiling a list of historical records, that usually goes out as a published paper. I guess you will have to satisfy yourself with just a fraction concerning 7th, 13th, 21st, 23rd SS divisions and 500th paratrooper battalion.

I am sorry for posting another comment, but I got accused for plagiarism and that is one of the biggest insults in academic circles so I had to answer. For a sockpuppet to accuse someone for plagiarism is a new low I guess.

You are good at making accusations, but you are not a historian.

You are from the Balkans I guess - since you are promoting a Yugoslavia mod - and maybe that is why you want to promote all of these ideas about Germans being terrible at organization and combat in WWII.

I know! Maybe the developers at Paradox will make it so the Yugoslavian Partisans are OP compared to the German units, then there would be no need for a mod? But somehow I think they will not do this.

We all know that this are was overrun by the German war machine, and the Partisans there were nothing more than a nuisance. (Even though you spat on about the 4th getting their ass kicked)

Could it be that you are still upset that Germany today is leading Europe? Are you just anti-German? I have a very good friend who is Croatian obtaining her PhD in Molecular Science, and where does she go to school? Berlin. Masters was done at Heidelberg. She has no such anger, but look where she chooses to go to school.

Now, I obtained my degree in California - yes, I will grant you that US schools are not as good as German ones, but the underlying mechanisms for the study of History are the same.

Now, you have called me another name "sockpuppet". I still will not call you names, as I think its what people do when they are challenged and un-nerved. Go ahead with more.

If you have personally published in a historical journal, or published anything on the war, just provide the link. Ich glaube nicht.

 

[Vukodav]

You are from the Balkans I guess - since you are promoting a Yugoslavia mod - and maybe that is why you want to promote all of these ideas about Germans being terrible at organization and combat in WWII.

Could it be that you are still upset that Germany today is leading Europe? Are you just anti-German?

From the discussion about how bad actual Waffen SS units overall were, you made it into a generalized talk about Germans and even evoking an anti-German sentiment. Why, because I said Waffen SS had bad battle formation compared to other branches and nations? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Now, you have called me another name "sockpuppet"

I did. Might as well just called you a liar but I used the term that is used on the internet for someone pretending to be something he is not. Sue me.

Unlike you I provided many sources for my claims, you have yet to provide one for a single claim. Also, care to talk about ANY other division that is not 1st, 2nd or 12th?

 

[Secret Master]

This is an English language forum; all posts will be in English.

We're also not taking this discussion any further, since it has devolved into a discussion of anti-German sentiment somehow.

Thread closed.