Multicultural Wehrmacht & Waffen SS
- Thread starter TheRomanRuler
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Yea, I thought it was only an option for a civil war. Ah twice the fun then...
Separate units for the simple fact that they were separate! You have proved my point for me. When you say that a division was larger or has better equipment, that infers different statistical representation right there!
Second point. You said, "In the end, the only reason why any SS division did a bit better was because they were prioritized for everything" which totally discounts commitment on the part of dedicated believers in the cause of the Reich, as well as unit commanders being selected because of their performance. If you can read German, I suggest you look into this some more. You will find some things that are not published by Americans in German documentation, as well as British.
Think about such people as Wittmann, or Wunsche - did they only do well because of their equipment? Did German units outperform American, British and Russian units because of their equipment? In the same way, you can not attribute better performance by SS units only to equipment. Equipment is one thing, dedication and intelligence is quite another.
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I don't think that they should be included, simply because I can't really see how they would be meaningfully included.
From a historical standpoint, sure, there were foreigners that were incorporated into the German military. Likewise, there were Germans included in the Allied military. As far as I'm aware, over 10,000 Germans joined the British military. If PDS were to include something for the 3,000 Indians in the German military, surely the Germans fighting with the British would have to be represented as well. But to what end? What does it really add? Those small amounts of manpower shifted around would largely cancel each other out, and a handful of units with marginally different stats isn't necessarily representative or meaningful either. Certainly at this stage of development, 'special units' are not meaningful enough to include; after release perhaps.
From a historical standpoint, sure, there were foreigners that were incorporated into the German military. Likewise, there were Germans included in the Allied military. As far as I'm aware, over 10,000 Germans joined the British military. If PDS were to include something for the 3,000 Indians in the German military, surely the Germans fighting with the British would have to be represented as well. But to what end? What does it really add? Those small amounts of manpower shifted around would largely cancel each other out, and a handful of units with marginally different stats isn't necessarily representative or meaningful either. Certainly at this stage of development, 'special units' are not meaningful enough to include; after release perhaps.
I'm fairly certain that what Vukodav means is that if you want to recreate an SS-esque unit in game, you can. Just produce a new division type with a few more battalions than what you're using as your main division, and ensure that they're prioritised for reinforcements/upgrades. You might not be able to get anything to represent any fanatical belief in a cause (for better or worse), but you can still ensure they get full training and select their general(s) at least.
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Well, if we go by the wiki, there were also Indian students in Germany at the start of the war that were put in the unit. Not the majority, but there were some.
Sooooo..... I guess you could argue that the unit would be included as a purely volunteer formation. But then we're not even at 3,000. I guess that makes it even more moot.
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yes thats the main problem in Black Ice mod, for example they create those unique units for everything, those hq very nice but give different stats to the div and you have different stats between same infantry divisions.
I think the Multi-ethnic on German wermacht only have to be represented as manpower
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You have absolutely NO IDEA how HoI4 division builder works, do you? Even if I have said TWICE that you can make a division larger or smaller, with better or worse equipment? Do you even follow the development of the game?
And again, just because you had individuals, from 3-4 Waffen SS divisions (while other 30 were complete disaster!) that had a bit better performance, we must have a special Waffen SS divisions? Divisions with kind of stats I could already create with a new division builder, without the need for some special type of brigade?
Please tell me you are just trolling here. Or do I need to repeat myself for the forth time that you can already make a division with required stats with the current build of the game, without the need for some redundant special crap?
That is the point. If someone want to have 400 different divisions for every big nation, he can play Black ICE, if he can deal with the CTD all the time. What is the point of having a division builder, different units like artillery, AT, AA and so on? Let's just make special unit with its own stats and names. Like HoI2, but every single one will be different.
Because, you know, Hans had sore feet so his performance was a bit worse than that of John from 101st. And Aleksei was drunk, because Stalin gave him the medal for bravery so his division will have a bit worse stats. Don't make me start on sailors, pilots and drivers and their units. Every nation, 2000 different units... because our Michael Wittmann here was a bigger Nazi than his mate Schmit over in the Grossdeutschland division or Gruber in 16th Infantry.
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Good point.
I prefer forging my own elite Divisions, than building them from the start. If a infantrie Div has earned enough experience, transform her to motorised or tank Division.
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That is a laughable comment. You are no historian.
Pointing out inaccurate statements does not constitute trolling. You are upset because someone dared to question your statements.
As for the game itself, I check the DD's now and again - I own HOi3 as you can see - and you might also notice my join date. I may buy this title, and I may not, but what is it to you? Are you developing this game?
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Well the WSS in my eyes and without sources available had; over average, average and below average combat abilities depending on unit/division.
It would add more to flavor to build them as they were individually but thats just me.
It would add more to flavor to build them as they were individually but thats just me.
No, I am a physicist who obviously knows more history than you, what ever your profession might be.
Pint out inaccurate does not. Being inaccurate yourself over and over again - does. But as I have the time, lets us go through the WHOLE Waffen SS list and end your historical misconceptions. 'Ere it goes:
1. SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler
The formation that suffered a lot of casualties during Poland and France campaigns with no real need or purpose, disobeyed the direct order from Hitler during the French campaign. First commendable contribution to war was during the Balkan campaign against the second rate forces. Only in mid 1941 the formation became a division - so after TWO YEARS of fighting - and indeed had an effect. That usually happens when you have a division that fought for two years and is equipped by the best equipment Germany has.
2. SS Das Reich
The formation that fought in France and later East where it got its experience. During any difficult fight they, together with the rest of the SS formation, were the first to retreat while the Wehrmacht held the line for them. Every battle they were in was a bloodbath - usually for them. Distinguished itself mostly by work "behind the front lines". But none the less, still one of the better Waffen SS divisions.
3. SS Totenkopf
A division formed from camp guards and fascist militia - need one say more? Actually never considered an elite formation, distinguished itself only by duties "behind the front line", unlike some other Waffen SS divisions.
4. SS Polizei
Name says it all. First half of the war spent in reserve, second half went to battle for a short time before being returned for a guard duty in occupied provinces. That speaks volumes about its battle credentials - elite front line units do not get sent to safeguard streets.
5. SS Wiking
First real battle seen in deep Soviet Union. Never against first rate enemy, always on a secondary front and against partisans for the rest of the war. Also never considered to be an elite formation.
6. SS Nord
Did absolutely nothing noteworthy for the full duration of the war except providing a target practice for Soviet guns.
7. SS Prinz Eugen
For the whole duration of the war stationed in the occupied Balkan where it could not deal with a ragtag peasant guerrilla formations. Their performance was laughable in everything but "behind the front" duties that SS usually did.
8. SS Florian Geyer
Another division that camped during the whole war with an occasional anti-partisan duty.
9. SS Hohenstaufen
An armored division that could only deal with infantry divisions, and lightly armed ones might I add? It had success in the West, that much is true. But as said, against formations inferior to itself. The only time division was to face any armored foe, it was in the reserve. Sent when it had to deal with frozen paratroopers. An armored division. Against paratroopers. Yes, if anything shows one's tactical superiority, skill and determination - that does!
10. SS Frundsberg
Same as 9th SS division.
11. SS Nordland
Like 7th SS, could not deal with partisans in the Balkan, during its front duty fought as a rear guard. There it had limited success.
12. SS Hitlerjugend
Youth that was in military training for the most part of their life, got the best gear and officers possible, panzer division - did just as an ordinary 352. INFANTRY division. Also, had those "duties" as other SS units.
13. SS Handžar
Together with 7. and 11. SS divisions could not deal with partisans. A bloody disaster of a division.
14. SS Galizien
Another anti-partisan division that shattered during the first contact in the real battle.
15. SS 1st Latvian
A formation built by conscription, no real will to fight, collapsed when the battle started. Did nothing noteworthy for the duration of the war except a brief defense in North Germany - a second like front for both Soviet Union and Allies.
16. SS Reichsfuhrer-SS
Never took part in any battle, except against partisans for a short time.
17. SS Gotz von Berlichingen
Actually DID take part in war, could not deal with equal opposition. Lost a lot of men, had worse performance than some notable Wehrmacht units.
18. SS Horst Wessel
Another anti-partisan division that got destroyed when facing another division instead of peasants with rifles.
19. SS 2nd Latvian
As 1st Latvian, but worse. Got caught in Courland, stayed there.
20. SS 1st Estonian
Maybe the best non-German SS division there was. Fought just like any other division should, so nothing special here. The main difference being that, unlike other divisions, this one could refit itself with tens of thousands conscripted men, so it could take a lot of punishment and remain active.
21. SS Skanderbeg
Never actually a division by its size, unlike most other SS division that did see occasional fight at least with the partisan forces, they didn't do even that. The "division" got attacked by partisan forces that shattered the division into a bunch of deserters. Is that a sign of a "superior skill and determination"? But I guess Michael Wittman is enough for a whole set of divisions to be called special, skillful and tenacious.
22. SS Maria Theresia
A rare example of a backstabbing formation that was destroyed in its first combat. These late ones sure as hell justify your request and idea of a "superior divisions". Too bad Nazi propaganda had nothing to do with the reality.
23. SS Kama
Never even saw action and never reached a division size. If it did, would be the same as 13th SS Handžar.
23. SS Nederland
It too was never a full sized division. Fought as a brigade with other formations.
24. SS Karstjager
Another anti-partisan division, by no means different than an ordinary garrison division.
25. SS Hunyadi
Never actually formed, had to be evacuated from training, didn't see combat.
26. SS Hungaria
Twin brother of 25th SS division.
27. SS Langemark
During its time as the SS division, didn't do anything noteworthy (in order to distinguish itself from other units). Fought as a brigade under other formations.
28. SS Walloon
Another division that was not a division but a brigade for duties behind the front and when forced to fight in the front line got sent on flans and as a relief force.
29. SS RONA
Another SS BRIGADE that was used for "behind the front", completely unreliable and got disbanded.
29. SS Italia
Fought at Anzio with some results - but we all know why. That whole thing was a poorly planned bloody mistake on the Allied side. So not actually something one would be proud with. But let us say they did their duty, nothing more, nothing less. Allies made a mistake, they used it - the only useful thing that a division ever did.
30. SS Belorussian
Completely unreliable, mutinied, killed its German officers and ran away.
31. SS Batschka
Again, not a full division. Didn't do anything as well.
32. SS 30 Januar
Scraping-the-barrel type of division, did as much as Volkssturm battalions did. Made Soviets spend some bullets.
33. SS Charlemagne
Actually did something in Berlin. Although, it is not hard to be "motivated" when you know that your only option to survive is to fight. No retreat or surrender was possible even in theory. That is what any formation does in that time, didn't make them special for it.
34. SS Landstorm Nederland
Another brigade, filled with people who did not want to work. Unreliable, held back from combat - got kicked when faced another infantry division.
35. SS and Police
Fart of a formation. Sorry, no better words to describe it.
36. SS Dirlewanger
Penal division, for "behind the front" use. The worst members of mankind type of a division.
37. SS Lutzow
Formed from what remained of other shattered divisions, did nothing, had only two regiments. It is not strange that Hitler was screaming "Fegelein!" in Der Untergang - Fegelein was the leader of the division.
38. SS Nibelungen
Formed what what ever remained of the SS that had two legs and two arms and at least one eye, was running around south Germany for two weeks and surrendered.
The formation that suffered a lot of casualties during Poland and France campaigns with no real need or purpose, disobeyed the direct order from Hitler during the French campaign. First commendable contribution to war was during the Balkan campaign against the second rate forces. Only in mid 1941 the formation became a division - so after TWO YEARS of fighting - and indeed had an effect. That usually happens when you have a division that fought for two years and is equipped by the best equipment Germany has.
2. SS Das Reich
The formation that fought in France and later East where it got its experience. During any difficult fight they, together with the rest of the SS formation, were the first to retreat while the Wehrmacht held the line for them. Every battle they were in was a bloodbath - usually for them. Distinguished itself mostly by work "behind the front lines". But none the less, still one of the better Waffen SS divisions.
3. SS Totenkopf
A division formed from camp guards and fascist militia - need one say more? Actually never considered an elite formation, distinguished itself only by duties "behind the front line", unlike some other Waffen SS divisions.
4. SS Polizei
Name says it all. First half of the war spent in reserve, second half went to battle for a short time before being returned for a guard duty in occupied provinces. That speaks volumes about its battle credentials - elite front line units do not get sent to safeguard streets.
5. SS Wiking
First real battle seen in deep Soviet Union. Never against first rate enemy, always on a secondary front and against partisans for the rest of the war. Also never considered to be an elite formation.
6. SS Nord
Did absolutely nothing noteworthy for the full duration of the war except providing a target practice for Soviet guns.
7. SS Prinz Eugen
For the whole duration of the war stationed in the occupied Balkan where it could not deal with a ragtag peasant guerrilla formations. Their performance was laughable in everything but "behind the front" duties that SS usually did.
8. SS Florian Geyer
Another division that camped during the whole war with an occasional anti-partisan duty.
9. SS Hohenstaufen
An armored division that could only deal with infantry divisions, and lightly armed ones might I add? It had success in the West, that much is true. But as said, against formations inferior to itself. The only time division was to face any armored foe, it was in the reserve. Sent when it had to deal with frozen paratroopers. An armored division. Against paratroopers. Yes, if anything shows one's tactical superiority, skill and determination - that does!
10. SS Frundsberg
Same as 9th SS division.
11. SS Nordland
Like 7th SS, could not deal with partisans in the Balkan, during its front duty fought as a rear guard. There it had limited success.
12. SS Hitlerjugend
Youth that was in military training for the most part of their life, got the best gear and officers possible, panzer division - did just as an ordinary 352. INFANTRY division. Also, had those "duties" as other SS units.
13. SS Handžar
Together with 7. and 11. SS divisions could not deal with partisans. A bloody disaster of a division.
14. SS Galizien
Another anti-partisan division that shattered during the first contact in the real battle.
15. SS 1st Latvian
A formation built by conscription, no real will to fight, collapsed when the battle started. Did nothing noteworthy for the duration of the war except a brief defense in North Germany - a second like front for both Soviet Union and Allies.
16. SS Reichsfuhrer-SS
Never took part in any battle, except against partisans for a short time.
17. SS Gotz von Berlichingen
Actually DID take part in war, could not deal with equal opposition. Lost a lot of men, had worse performance than some notable Wehrmacht units.
18. SS Horst Wessel
Another anti-partisan division that got destroyed when facing another division instead of peasants with rifles.
19. SS 2nd Latvian
As 1st Latvian, but worse. Got caught in Courland, stayed there.
20. SS 1st Estonian
Maybe the best non-German SS division there was. Fought just like any other division should, so nothing special here. The main difference being that, unlike other divisions, this one could refit itself with tens of thousands conscripted men, so it could take a lot of punishment and remain active.
21. SS Skanderbeg
Never actually a division by its size, unlike most other SS division that did see occasional fight at least with the partisan forces, they didn't do even that. The "division" got attacked by partisan forces that shattered the division into a bunch of deserters. Is that a sign of a "superior skill and determination"? But I guess Michael Wittman is enough for a whole set of divisions to be called special, skillful and tenacious.
22. SS Maria Theresia
A rare example of a backstabbing formation that was destroyed in its first combat. These late ones sure as hell justify your request and idea of a "superior divisions". Too bad Nazi propaganda had nothing to do with the reality.
23. SS Kama
Never even saw action and never reached a division size. If it did, would be the same as 13th SS Handžar.
23. SS Nederland
It too was never a full sized division. Fought as a brigade with other formations.
24. SS Karstjager
Another anti-partisan division, by no means different than an ordinary garrison division.
25. SS Hunyadi
Never actually formed, had to be evacuated from training, didn't see combat.
26. SS Hungaria
Twin brother of 25th SS division.
27. SS Langemark
During its time as the SS division, didn't do anything noteworthy (in order to distinguish itself from other units). Fought as a brigade under other formations.
28. SS Walloon
Another division that was not a division but a brigade for duties behind the front and when forced to fight in the front line got sent on flans and as a relief force.
29. SS RONA
Another SS BRIGADE that was used for "behind the front", completely unreliable and got disbanded.
29. SS Italia
Fought at Anzio with some results - but we all know why. That whole thing was a poorly planned bloody mistake on the Allied side. So not actually something one would be proud with. But let us say they did their duty, nothing more, nothing less. Allies made a mistake, they used it - the only useful thing that a division ever did.
30. SS Belorussian
Completely unreliable, mutinied, killed its German officers and ran away.
31. SS Batschka
Again, not a full division. Didn't do anything as well.
32. SS 30 Januar
Scraping-the-barrel type of division, did as much as Volkssturm battalions did. Made Soviets spend some bullets.
33. SS Charlemagne
Actually did something in Berlin. Although, it is not hard to be "motivated" when you know that your only option to survive is to fight. No retreat or surrender was possible even in theory. That is what any formation does in that time, didn't make them special for it.
34. SS Landstorm Nederland
Another brigade, filled with people who did not want to work. Unreliable, held back from combat - got kicked when faced another infantry division.
35. SS and Police
Fart of a formation. Sorry, no better words to describe it.
36. SS Dirlewanger
Penal division, for "behind the front" use. The worst members of mankind type of a division.
37. SS Lutzow
Formed from what remained of other shattered divisions, did nothing, had only two regiments. It is not strange that Hitler was screaming "Fegelein!" in Der Untergang - Fegelein was the leader of the division.
38. SS Nibelungen
Formed what what ever remained of the SS that had two legs and two arms and at least one eye, was running around south Germany for two weeks and surrendered.
So, let me summarize here.
24/38 were divisions, the rest were brigades and regiments
18/38 have never seen combat other than occasional fight with the partisans
9/38 actually took part in some meaningful conflict and..
5/9 of those actually made an impact in it
2/38 were considered an elite force and indeed outperformed their Wehrmacht counterparts (usually for before mentioned reasons, not because they were brainwashed Nazis)
2 (TWO) DIVISIONS! OUT OF 38! And because of that, there should be a special unit called SS division?! How about you spend some time and MAKE THEM elite units, because even those units became elite only by the end of the war, after countless casualties and battles - just like ANY OTHER division did.
Do you even know how many Wehrmacht division got the title "elite" and actually outperformed SS units? Do you have any idea? Of course you do not, they didn't wear those fancy uniforms kids freak out about.
When you ask for a special SS divisions and system for them, while providing argument like "Michael Wittmann", let me remind you once again that most of the SS were not tall blonde Aryans with superior skills, determination and leadership.
I hope this ends your fantasy about some special units that outperformed others. They didn't. Fact. Two did, for reasons that can be done in the game with the system there is - not the reason you think they did. Learn history but not from History Channel and Neo-Nazi YouTube channels.
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Its very painful for you that someone thinks your wrong, but I will tell you I am German and can read in German. I don't need to watch the shows you mention. I actually have a degree in history. That does not make me an expert, but it does afford me the ability to point out fanciful statements such as yours.
Just because you name some divisions, does not make your statements about whole units being worthless in the war....true. Have you anything to say about the performance of allied units in comparison? I think not. I've never seen an actual historian write the way you do, so I know you are not trained in historical inquiry.
I don't know what "Nazi fantasies" you're talking about, but name calling doesn't bother me one bit.
{But you might attract the attention of the board moderators doing that.}
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Its very painful for you that someone thinks your wrong, but I will tell you I am German and can read in German. I don't need to watch the shows you mention. I actually have a degree in history. That does not make me an expert, but it does afford me the ability to point out fanciful statements such as yours.
Just because you name some divisions, does not make your statements about whole units being worthless in the war....true. Have you anything to say about the performance of allied units in comparison? I think not. I've never seen an actual historian write the way you do, so I know you are not trained in historical inquiry.
I don't know what "Nazi fantasies" you're talking about, but name calling doesn't bother me one bit.
Name calling? I said you gobbled up 1940's Nazi propaganda, not that you are a Nazi yourself for crying out loud! 0.o
Funny thing, I go through the whole military history of every single Waffen SS division (not some, all!) to prove how wrong you are, yet all your rebuttal is "I have a history degree". Arguments mate, arguments.
And there is a thing called scientific principle that applies to any scientific inquiry - there is no such thing a specific historical inquiry. A biologist can take a look at your argumentation and know that you are wrong - he does not need a history degree, ha knows what a scientific principle is.
Don't worry, I can speak a ton about Allied units, Soviet units, partisan campaign in the Balkan and Belarus, and Wehrmacht units, but we neither have the time nor the space for that. I actually named you Wehrmacht divisions that did fare better than 90% of Waffen SS division, were not considered elite, and are still represented as an ordinary unit. Did you skip that part during your "Waffen SS was awesome" fantasy?
Tell me mighty historian, how did SS division do during the Polish and French campaigns? Were they masters of their craft or a bunch of brainwashed nitwits? I think it was the other way around.
Can you actually name any SS unit, besides 1. and 2. SS, that actually did anything better than a classic Wehrmacht division? You do understand that you have only mentioned two SS icons in two SS divisions while actually neglecting the rest 36 divisions? Waffen SS in the end was nothing but a drain on supply and manpower and the whole structure was a Frankenstein's monster. Please oh please sing me a song about dedication and intelligence of 13. SS, or 21., 36. and how they outperformed anyone.
It's no problem when someone thinks differently, it is a problem when someone lies. Not a single argument, talks about nothing but two divisions while neglecting over 90% of the Waffen SS. Well done. I would not boast about that history degree, your college might revoke it.
And this has become a conversation where you talk about the made up superiority of the Waffen SS and me trying to pull you back to the ground. You have strayed away completely from the subject and my original point - present game mechanic does allow the creation of every land division there was in a war, the way they historically were and there is no point in piling on extra set of units for every single division someone fancies. And as you can see, most people agree with that.
No problem, you can ask as a flavor units, DLC or something. No one has a problem with that. Just do not make up stories about the superiority of the SS to justify your wish - that is all. They were not superior - 4 SS divisions got their asses kicked by unorganized peasants with Great War weapons in the Balkan during the war so ease up on Aryan superman propaganda.
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Do you realize how crazy and outlandish, such statements are? Where do you think many of the men came from? The Wehrmacht...eh...could be. But, yes...maybe Germans had bad training in WWII. You should really write a book about this, if you are convinced. But you better back up these overarching statements with some hard data.
It was you who said they did "better" because they were prioritized for the best equipment. In fact...you said, "The only reason why any SS division did a bit better was because they were prioritized for everything" - better than who? Other Germans? Soviet troops? Americans?
I am only confronting you on your outlandish statements. The SS have been considered elite combat units by very respectable, professional historians in England and the US. You are the one disputing their assurtions.
I am pointing out that you statements are ridiculously overarching. You can post all the unit numbers and names you like, but your underlying argument is built on sand.
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If we can't take the vitriol down a notch, I'll just kill the thread and mete out appropriate rewards.
Well, Vukodav literally said that he's not an historian, so pointing that out probably isn't the best use of your time. Simply dismissing his statements on the use and performance of each of the SS groups as fanciful without providing any actual meat for a counter-argument doesn't make for much of a debate. As someone who doesn't really know much in the way of the particulars when it comes to the performance of the SS, to me Vukodav is making a better argument.
Vukodav's listed a small blurb on each of the 38 Waffen SS groups and has not been kind on evaluating their performance. Rather than simply dismissing his claims, write why he's wrong (sources are always a bonus). Give your evaluation of their performance, what did Vukodav overlook? From what I can see in my admittedly brief readings in the past couple of hours, Wehrmacht KIA and MIA losses are between 18% and 29%, whereas Waffen SS KIA and MIA were between 25% and 35%. Is that significant? Why/why not?
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He is making overarching and outlandish comments about the SS being terrible. Thus, he must prove this - since it is not what has been published by many historians. I don't think this guy would be published, in fact...he would not. One can not just call whole groups of people brainwashed and think it will be taken seriously.
He attempted to insult me in multiple ways, but I won't do the same. I only point out how he paints a broad brush with his military history.
If you yourself would like to learn about the combat formations of the Waffen - SS, read some published material. Don't go by some debate on a forum.
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