Multicultural Wehrmacht & Waffen SS

[TheRomanRuler]

There were 38 Waffen SS divisions of which 19 were mixed, or made up exclusively of foreigners. In addition there were Cossacks and numerous volunteers of Wehrmacht, like Indian Legion and Spanish Legion.

Of these, only Spanish legion can be formed using in game mechanics, by Spain sending expeditionary forces. But is there any way to reflect Indian Legion in game? Indians never were present in large numbers in German armies, becouse they believed better way to get independence would be joining British army. But in alternate history, what prevents that from being different? During peace time, large numbers of Indians might move to Germany for promise of independent nation. British would notice this and might close borders of India. Germany might use this as casus belli and Indians might revolt. And WW2 has started differently.

I would love to see foreign legions such as Indian legion in the game, is there some kind of mechanic for them in the game, in addition to independent nation sending volunteers to another independent nation, or expeditionary forces?

This can be easily just modded in via events - but i think goal should be to have actual mechanics for it.

 

[Kubi123]

Depending on your occupation policy you get a fraction of the occupied provinces manpower which could be seen as volunteers for your army.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Depending on your occupation policy you get a fraction of the occupied provinces manpower which could be seen as volunteers for your army.

But how could i get Indians into German army? Historically Germany did not occupy Indian, but had Indian soldiers.

 

[Loke]

13th WSS Handschar had Bosniaks and Croats if memory serves and I even think the Mufti of Jerusalem went visiting them.

 

[Kubi123]

Hmm yes that situation could not be simulated currently.
The only way to simulate this would be to track a divisions origin and allow you to via a decision recruit a certain amount of a captured divisions men given its of the correct origin (->Manpower).
On the other hand as far as I know currently there is not even a mechanic for capturing enemy equipment planned so I guess such a feature will sadly not be implemented.

 

[Vukodav]

13th WSS Handschar had Bosniaks and Croats if memory serves and I even think the Mufti of Jerusalem went visiting them.

Yes, soldiers were South Slavic Muslims (from 1993 they have the name Bosniak) and some Croats (most ethnic Croats were in other divisions like 369th, 372rd and 392nd so there was not much left for the SS to take), while the officers where mostly Volksdeutsche Germans from former Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

Now, as far as OP's request goes. Events could give you manpower and then have you build units with them. Anything other than that and you will get a complete division - and that did not happen. Foreign volunteers are in game, as well as expeditionary force for other usual SS units. For mixed units, as said above, you get manpower from the occupied nation. Units that came from Allied nations (like India) could and should be done through the event giving you some manpower.

Now, there are no SS units in the game. You can make them if you want - make a template that has a higher number of soldiers/brigades (SS divisions were larger than a standard infantry division) and prioritize them for upgrades and supply. I am sure someone will make the SS counter so you can see them in the field easy. And you can name them any way you want.

I think that big mistake of mods (like Black Ice) and sometimes Vanilla game are free units. You either do something minor or nothing at all and you get free units. So I think no, there should be no special mechanics for you to get SS units (or any other units). For expeditionary force (where enemy gives you the units to use as you see fit) there is a way, foreign volunteers too (where those who sent them controls them), and mixed divisions you get from a occupied manpower.

For extra special cases like Indian soldiers, an event for additional manpower is quite enough and closer to history.

Well, at least that is what I think.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Yes, soldiers were South Slavic Muslims (from 1993 they have the name Bosniak) and some Croats (most ethnic Croats were in other divisions like 369th, 372rd and 392nd so there was not much left for the SS to take), while the officers where mostly Volksdeutsche Germans from former Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

Now, as far as OP's request goes. Events could give you manpower and then have you build units with them. Anything other than that and you will get a complete division - and that did not happen. Foreign volunteers are in game, as well as expeditionary force for other usual SS units. For mixed units, as said above, you get manpower from the occupied nation. Units that came from Allied nations (like India) could and should be done through the event giving you some manpower.

Now, there are no SS units in the game. You can make them if you want - make a template that has a higher number of soldiers/brigades (SS divisions were larger than a standard infantry division) and prioritize them for upgrades and supply. I am sure someone will make the SS counter so you can see them in the field easy. And you can name them any way you want.

I think that big mistake of mods (like Black Ice) and sometimes Vanilla game are free units. You either do something minor or nothing at all and you get free units. So I think no, there should be no special mechanics for you to get SS units (or any other units). For expeditionary force (where enemy gives you the units to use as you see fit) there is a way, foreign volunteers too (where those who sent them controls them), and mixed divisions you get from a occupied manpower.

For extra special cases like Indian soldiers, an event for additional manpower is quite enough and closer to history.

Well, at least that is what I think.

For vanilla that might be satisfactory, but i hope at some point we get DLC with great mechanics for elite units. We have Aztec invasion DLC for CK2, so even tough HOI4 is made by different team, i don`t think this is too much to ask. At some point. If i pay for it.

 

[Vukodav]

For vanilla that might be satisfactory, but i hope at some point we get DLC with great mechanics for elite units. We have Aztec invasion DLC for CK2, so even tough HOI4 is made by different team, i don`t think this is too much to ask. At some point. If i pay for it.

What constitutes an elite unit?

That is a unit with the best weapons, the longest training and fighting experience - as far as I know.

And that is what you can do with the present system. I have a lot of bad things to say about HoI4 but this is actually a rare good thing. SS units were regular units (no matter what Hitler said, there was no such thing as a an Aryan Superman, don't fall for that), equipped with weapons that Germany produced for any other unit (SS just got new weapons before anyone else - and sometimes it was bad as they were the ones that had to deal with the field testing while other units got improved versions), and had division size a bit larger than regular divisions.

All that is perfectly doable to a full extent in the present system. And more than doable, it is factual. For some reason people require a new unit that will be called "elite" or "special", like those units were made just like that. No, they were forged in battle over a period of time. Why would an SS unit have different stats than regular infantry division?

Late war SS divisions were as far away from Elite status as a division could be. Why? No weapons, no training, no combat experience.

I just do not understand the "I want special elite units system" request by some people. There were some in HoI3... they were basically ordinary units with a single trait. For instance, SS was ordinary motorized infantry with a higher suppression rate. Well, you can create a division like that now, to be as historical as possible. Believe me, 2. SS Panzer division was not so great at suppression, they were armored division for front line duty.

So with this new system not only can you create Elite division in a realistic and historical way, but you can make their composition historical! Not every SS division was the same. Some had more armor, some less, some had better equipment some worse, some had better suppression abilities others worse, some had better training some none at all.

It pains me to see Devs watering down a game because of the casual players who cannot be bothered to build up their elite units - you just click and there they are.

In HoI3 I used to create divisions and when SS ones pop out, I would designate them first in line for reinforcement and upgrade, have them placed in a special command and I forge them to be the Elite, together with their commanders. I made them Elite, they were not automatic elite units - those things do not happen in real life.

And you know what? That actually makes you take a better care of those divisions and brings up the immersion. And if, God forbid, full xp division like that, that started from an infantry division, then upgraded to motorized, mechanized, got its armor detachment in late war, has seen every battlefield, from Poland, to France, Scotland, Siberia - gets surrounded and destroyed in USA counterattack in Detroit in 1947, it would not be strange if you punch a wall.

Just saying - taking a longer road might actually make the game more fun than just getting all served on a silver plate.

But that is only my thought, I usually tend to go with more realism and less fan service in these kind of games.

 

[LordOfWar16]

The Indians, or british raj as it is called, could send you volunteers to support you in your war. I dont know if puppets can actually do that or not, but neutral countries can send you troops that way, even tho under their control. Once they are called into the war that is no longer possible of course.

 

[sgt.stickybomb]

Multicultural Wehrmacht & Waffen SS

You mean multi ethnic not multicultural.

 

[BBBD316]

I wouldn't mind event simulating the volunteering of foreign troops outside of any governments control.

The Polish soliders that then flew/fought with the British as an example. I like the way that WIF2 does it for the SS in DH, you get an event in which says you can make SS units and you pay for their formation but they are slightly different in their stats.

For "Elite" units I can't see any real reason for this, experience of the unit already provides a bonus to their performance, perhaps a ledger page that shows you units by experience so you can make sure those fighting the most are always at the active front and that they get upgrades sooner.

 

[Secret Master]

There were 3,000 total in the Free India Legion. Is that really significant enough to represent?

 

[fastfreddie77]

Probably something more suited for a Mod to handle and abstract elite units are as close to some of these as we'll get in this "sandbox" HOI.

 

[Loke]

How about "Blue division" - Spanish volunters on the eastern front 1941-1943. I think 250th infantry division was a full division of about 18000 men.

 

[kreissig]

Late war SS divisions were as far away from Elite status as a division could be. Why? No weapons, no training, no combat experience.

The 12th SS was a "late war" formation, and what you say above does not line up with its reality.

Also, one must remember that SS units achieved better combat records in many cases - especially in the schwerpunkt Ost - than their Wher counterparts. This understanding justifies SS counters for a game having different stats than that of the Whermacht. As has been done in board games of the past.

 

[Vukodav]

The 12th SS was a "late war" formation, and what you say above does not line up with its reality.

Also, one must remember that SS units achieved better combat records in many cases - especially in the schwerpunkt Ost - than their Wher counterparts. This understanding justifies SS counters for a game having different stats than that of the Whermacht. As has been done in board games of the past.

If that is the case, then 30/38 SS divisions were "late war". In the same time as 12th, 13th was also formed - and it was as bad as they got. Why? Well, bad equipment, next to no training. 12th did fine because they got the best equipment and unlike other divisions their members were practically in a military training for the majority of their lives. Also, they fought against amphibious invasion of pretty much green troops, in a great defensive position... and by the end of Normandy campaign lost 42% manpower and 95% armor and artillery. That is not good, that is actually very bad performance given everything they got.

352nd Infantry Division did better actually. And that was an ordinary Wehrmacht division.

And as far as push East goes... what divisions? You mean those 6/38 that took part? 6th SS was a disaster, 5th's notable battle was at Rostov-on-Don and before it was spared most of the heavy fighting, 4th was in a reserve and whey did take part it was devastating for the division. The only ones that did anything were 3rd, 2nd and 1st - divisions that were LARGER than their Wehrmacht counterparts, with BETTER equipment and PRIORITIZED reinforcement and supply.

Any difference between the SS and a usual division is doable with new production and division design system. Prioritization, equipment, size, training. There is not a single reason for the SS division to be a special kind of unit. Because then we need Panzer Lehr, Grossdeutschland, 5th Mountain, 7th armored, 352nd Infantry, 16th infantry and so on.

For every single division that did a bit better than the others, let's have a special unit.

And those are only GERMAN divisions - what are we gonna do with countless other divisions from other nations that did a bit better than their colleagues from the army? Why not every division as a special unit with historical composition?!

In the end, the only reason why any SS division did a bit better was because they were prioritized for everything, unlike regular troops who had to wait for the SS to get their supplies and gear. In a system like that, for those 3-4/38 SS divisions not to be a bit better than other Wehrmacht divisions would be highly idiotic. So no, there is no reason to create a special division type when history and game mechanics is taken in consideration. Funny how, for your argument, you take 10-20% of the Waffen SS, while the rest that does not help your argument is out of the picture.

If the game did not have the way for you to prioritize upgrades and supply, determine division size and composition, then yes, an argument could be made for a special SS unit. But game has those things - so once again, nope nope nope.

 

[Haldan]

Progressive Nazis eh

 

[Grallak]

I doubt ethnicity will be implement and merely replaced by manpower in general. Too racial, too political, not really relevant other than you get less manpower from foreign countries and occupied countries, I guess.

 

[jamesd]

There were 3,000 total in the Free India Legion. Is that really significant enough to represent?

You beat me to it, and how much combat did the regiment see? As far as I'm aware it didn't see combat as the Germans considered it extremely unreliable and feared they would desert back to the Allies.

 

[Alex_brunius]

There were 3,000 total in the Free India Legion. Is that really significant enough to represent?

Also, according to wiki they were POWs, which means that they would never be in HoI for that reason either to being with ( even if the 3000 was deemed enough to warrant inclusion ).