Multi species population is a mess

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Zergor

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A lot of people have already said it: Right now the game makes you want to play xenophobe.
-Free pops "steal" the worker jobs of your dedicaced slaves
-A single pop of a new specie will get 100% of the growth of the planet until it reach the others
-Optimizing a specie for 1 job feel like a waste if they don't stick to it (and they often don't)


I think it all boils down to two things:
- Growth being weird (just add a RNG weighted by number of pops to chose which specie to grow that may be a bit biased toward low number pops if you still want them to slowly rise in numbers compared to others)

- Pop control being complicated.
Yes I know that free pops should do what they want and not what you want but sometimes GP is important, more than RP.
For this point I think that the solution is to have extra options to limit what pops can and can't do.

We for instance have slaves that basically can only be workers or unemployed but there is no way to have a specie that can be anything but worker.
Maybe have something like "Elite privilege" that prevent a specie to be worker and even a "Ruling specie" that can only be rulers (and maybe a "priviledged resident" one that allow only the specialist).
Those would probably need to give unemployed pops the same level of care than worker and specialists (and worker for the last one) respectively (and with the same happiness modifiers) to make sense.

That way we could both have more control on what happens in our planets. Syncretic evolution empires using those options may have to make sure they have both species on their planet but on the other hand would not see their main specie try to work instead of the prole creatures they made for that.

RP wise that would also allow some nice structured empires where there can be for instance an hedonistic specie ruling and not working any other jobs (basically same as the fallen empires), letting the manufacture and worker jobs be done by lesser species/robots.

And this would come at a cost of having your unemployed pops take more consumer goods so not a free buff.
This would not really work well with equalitarian though that couldn't really use those option though.
But I don't really have a solution for them. Any idea to control pops more seem to clash with the idea of an equalitarian empire.
 

Wolfgang I

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I agree that it is a mess but at least nerve stapling works like slavery and pops will only take worker jobs. Works for egalitarian empires too. If you find some proles this can be useful.
 

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We for instance have slaves that basically can only be workers or unemployed but there is no way to have a specie that can be anything but worker.
Maybe have something like "Elite privilege" that prevent a specie to be worker and even a "Ruling specie" that can only be rulers (and maybe a "priviledged resident" one that allow only the specialist).
Those would probably need to give unemployed pops the same level of care than worker and specialists (and worker for the last one) respectively (and with the same happiness modifiers) to make sense.

That way we could both have more control on what happens in our planets. Syncretic evolution empires using those options may have to make sure they have both species on their planet but on the other hand would not see their main specie try to work instead of the prole creatures they made for that.

It's maybe not exactly what you're asking for, but you can set an alien species rights to residence. Then your full citizens will be prioritized and will appropriate the highest level jobs from them, starting with rulers and then specialists, demoting the resident pops in the process if need be. On planets with low habitability typically only a few pops move in, and they will grab the ruler jobs from the resident aliens. So a way to make this play out kind of how you described it could be to take the "Nonadaptive" trait on your ruling species and start to conquer lots of aliens. Then since your species mostly have low habitability, the planets would end up something like this, with only a few rulers and possibly specialists from your founder species:

CD0F570515CA41D37C20D5BDBF4126D92E0027ED
 

Zergor

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It's maybe not exactly what you're asking for, but you can set an alien species rights to residence. Then your full citizens will be prioritized and will appropriate the highest level jobs from them, starting with rulers and then specialists, demoting the resident pops in the process if need be. On planets with low habitability typically only a few pops move in, and they will grab the ruler jobs from the resident aliens. So a way to make this play out kind of how you described it could be to take the "Nonadaptive" trait on your ruling species and start to conquer lots of aliens. Then since your species mostly have low habitability, the planets would end up something like this, with only a few rulers and possibly specialists from your founder species:

It's not exactly what I want but it's a nice workaround. Thanks for it, I'll try to do that. But indeed that won't prevent my rulers to become specialists.
 

Urza1234

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It's not exactly what I want but it's a nice workaround. Thanks for it, I'll try to do that. But indeed that won't prevent my rulers to become specialists.
When exactly are your rulers becoming specialists?

Pops prefer to move up. They otherwise stay where they are unless their job/jerb is taken. They only move down after a very lengthy period of unemployment.

New pops, ie pops that are resettled or grown, follow the same rules. They always prefer the highest possible open slot available within their settings.

Do you mean that you want to disallow your ruling species from becoming specialists, ever?
 

slackerpants

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It's not exactly what I want but it's a nice workaround. Thanks for it, I'll try to do that. But indeed that won't prevent my rulers to become specialists.

Unfortunately not. I've also wanted to create something like that with distinct classes for different races, and for example be able to create a sub-race of my ruler species that has only citizen rights/battle thralls or whatever. It is currently possible though to have separate rights for different sub-species of alien races.
 

Zergor

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Do you mean that you want to disallow your ruling species from becoming specialists, ever?

Yup, exactly that.
There is always a point where planets are overcrowded and in that case my ruling specie tend to want to work in the mines when there are slaves for that.
GP wise it's annoying because they arn't optimized for that.
RP wise that's strange because my civ has created a slave race just so they would work instead of them so they should prefer not working than working lesser jobs.
 

Urza1234

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Yup, exactly that.
There is always a point where planets are overcrowded and in that case my ruling specie tend to want to work in the mines when there are slaves for that.
GP wise it's annoying because they arn't optimized for that.
RP wise that's strange because my civ has created a slave race just so they would work instead of them so they should prefer not working than working lesser jobs.

That can only happen if a new pop of your ruler species grows on a planet, which you can see happening for frequently ~2 years in advance. It also means you had open mining jobs, but no open specialist/ruler jobs.

Simply click on the huge pop-growth portrait icon, right next to the robot assembly portrait-icon and declining pop portrait-icon. Force the growth of a species that is not your ruler.

I assume you also dont want your rulers in even specialist slots?
 

Wolfgang I

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Personally I find how demoting pops works a wee bit annoying. In multispecies empires I get unemployed rulers all the time and it only gets worse if you throw free synths into the mix. Well I get unemployed specialists all the time too but at least there are usually worlds I can move them to.
 

Urza1234

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Personally I find how demoting pops works a wee bit annoying. In multispecies empires I get unemployed rulers all the time and it only gets worse if you throw free synths into the mix. Well I get unemployed specialists all the time too but at least there are usually worlds I can move them to.

What are you doing to produce unemployed ruler pops?
 

Wolfgang I

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What are you doing to produce unemployed ruler pops?

I tried a fanatic xenophile egalitarian empire with free synths. At first I think better suited species replaced the original rulers on most planets(I integrated half of the AI empires in a huge galaxy). Later free synths started replacing those pops.

The same thing happens in xenophobe empires too if you have xenos that are not enslaved but have residence. Citzen rights pops seem to replace residence right pops as rulers over time. The only games in which I did not get unemployed rulers were full xeno slavery or purge games.

Edit: I know how to avoid it but I would have to stay away from most empire types in that case and experimenting with differnt ethics/civics is the main fun I get out of Stellaris now that the AI has been patched out of the game. Just min/maxing to crush an early 5x crisis is no fun right now as 2 are broken too.
 
Last edited:

Merry76

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Its also a bit silly that pops that move up the pyramid do so in days, but then refuse to go down again for YEARS.

Specialists should take a while to become specialists, and thus be worth something. So if anything, the waiting time to go up should be there (but called "education" or "training") and the one for demoting should be abolished or shortened to a more useful timespan. This a a zero-point-energy-powerdrill Mr. Science Guy. That is the business end, go nuts.

Add a unhappy modifier (recently demoted) for going down, because your privileges will get slashed.

I get that being a farmer/miner/technician is not a no-skill job (It takes 4 years to become a proper farmer - but most of this is done on the job, and you can be productive in weeks). Not now, and not in the far future. But becoming a researcher/artist etc. specialist is even harder, and you are probably pretty useless until you at least got a basic grasp of what you are supposed to do. A miner that is promoted to researcher is probably doing more harm than good to your scientific progress until he found his role where he at least can assist the brainiac that does the actual researching (yes, not every member of the pop that is assigned to research labs is actually conducting research...).
 

Masoz

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If you're going the route of specializing slaves to a certain resource, you need to specialize your planets for that same resource as well. Mixed populations will get you mixed results.
 

Zergor

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If you're going the route of specializing slaves to a certain resource, you need to specialize your planets for that same resource as well. Mixed populations will get you mixed results.

Yep but in an ideal game I would be able to have a planet filled with slaves with only 2 or 3 pops of my main specie to do the administration and the guards.
I always find it strange to have a planet filled with nothing but slaves.
 

Urza1234

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Its also a bit silly that pops that move up the pyramid do so in days, but then refuse to go down again for YEARS.

Specialists should take a while to become specialists, and thus be worth something. So if anything, the waiting time to go up should be there (but called "education" or "training") and the one for demoting should be abolished or shortened to a more useful timespan. This a a zero-point-energy-powerdrill Mr. Science Guy. That is the business end, go nuts.

Add a unhappy modifier (recently demoted) for going down, because your privileges will get slashed.

I get that being a farmer/miner/technician is not a no-skill job (It takes 4 years to become a proper farmer - but most of this is done on the job, and you can be productive in weeks). Not now, and not in the far future. But becoming a researcher/artist etc. specialist is even harder, and you are probably pretty useless until you at least got a basic grasp of what you are supposed to do. A miner that is promoted to researcher is probably doing more harm than good to your scientific progress until he found his role where he at least can assist the brainiac that does the actual researching (yes, not every member of the pop that is assigned to research labs is actually conducting research...).
I think there's a lot of value in this idea.
 

Urza1234

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Jun 28, 2016
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Yep but in an ideal game I would be able to have a planet filled with slaves with only 2 or 3 pops of my main specie to do the administration and the guards.
I always find it strange to have a planet filled with nothing but slaves.
Try giving your main pops Traditional and Charismatic, it boosts their chance to become rulers. You also might try making a resort world on which you house your main species, so you can resettle them as rulers when needed.

Speaking to your earlier idea, it wouldnt be hard to mod in a species trait with extremely low chance to fill a worker slot, if you're interested.
 
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