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ltccone

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I 've read advice here that it is a good idea as Germany to attack the USSR in 1940. I accepted the MR Pact to use more troops against France, and win faster.

Now, the tool tip shows the MR can't be broken with 100% of troops on the border until July 1, 1940. Is that too late to attack? There is no way I can have 200% on the border to attack before then.
 

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If you don't have enough troops to break the NAP, then I would guess that you either waited too late to execute the MR decision or you badly underbuilt for Barbarossa...or some combination of the two.
 

ltccone

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If you don't have enough troops to break the NAP, then I would guess that you either waited too late to execute the MR decision or you badly underbuilt for Barbarossa...or some combination of the two.

How can you build enough troops to have DOUBLE what the Soviets have on the border before July 1, 1940?
 

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How can you build enough troops to have DOUBLE what the Soviets have on the border before July 1, 1940?

By catching them with a large portion of their troops still tied down in Finland. From 6 months to 1 year after starting a NAP it takes 200% brigade count on the border to break a NAP. If the Soviets have pulled a large portion of their troops away from the border, then it lowers the requirements for you to break the NAP.

From 1 year to like 1.5 it is 100%, then goes down to 50%, then the NAP ends. If you had activated the MR decision as soon as it became available, then you would be in the 100% zone well before Spring of 1940. That is what I meant when I suggested that you might have waited too long to activate the MR decision.
 

ltccone

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By catching them with a large portion of their troops still tied down in Finland. From 6 months to 1 year after starting a NAP it takes 200% brigade count on the border to break a NAP. If the Soviets have pulled a large portion of their troops away from the border, then it lowers the requirements for you to break the NAP.

From 1 year to like 1.5 it is 100%, then goes down to 50%, then the NAP ends. If you had activated the MR decision as soon as it became available, then you would be in the 100% zone well before Spring of 1940. That is what I meant when I suggested that you might have waited too long to activate the MR decision.

OK; but I activated it the first day it was available, 1/1/39.
 

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OK; but I activated it the first day it was available, 1/1/39.

Then you have a bug. After 1 year following the start of a NAP it only takes 100% to break it, not 200%. If you are seeing 200% extending out to 18 months, then something is bugged or your save is corrupt.

...or I am flat wrong about the time periods...:ninja:
 

ltccone

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Then you have a bug. After 1 year following the start of a NAP it only takes 100% to break it, not 200%. If you are seeing 200% extending out to 18 months, then something is bugged or your save is corrupt.

...or I am flat wrong about the time periods...:ninja:

Does when it was activated make a difference? Poland surrendered about June 5.
 

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Does when it was activated make a difference? Poland surrendered about June 5.

Hmm, good question. I have always thought the NAP portion of the treaty went into effect when the Pact was accepted, but it might be that the script doesn't put it into effect until Germany honors the Pact and cedes eastern Poland to USSR. Will try to check that.

Edit: just checked and was rather surprised by what I found. Here is the section of the MR Pact decision file where the chain begins, with the surprising bit bolded.

Code:
	# German Proposal
	molotov_ribbentrop_pact = {
		major = yes
		potential = {
			tag = GER
			not = { has_country_flag = the_molotov_ribbentrop_pact }
			not = { alliance_with = SOV }
			exists = SOV
			exists = POL
			year = 1939	# Initial talks
			not = { year = 1940 }
			not = { war_with = SOV }
			not = { war_with = POL }
			not = { exists = AUS } # Anschluss of Austria
			or = {
				has_country_flag = first_vienna_award
				controls = 2562 # Praha
			}
		}
		allow = {
			POL = {
				not = { faction = axis }
				not = { alliance_with = GER }
			}
			GER = { is_subject = no }
			SOV = { is_subject = no }
			POL = { is_subject = no }
		}
		effect = {
			set_country_flag = the_molotov_ribbentrop_pact
			[B][COLOR="#FF0000"]non_aggression_pact = SOV[/COLOR][/B]
			neutrality = -15
			relation = { who = SOV value = 15 }
			relation = { who = EST value = -75 }
			relation = { who = LAT value = -75 }
			relation = { who = LIT value = -75 }
			SOV = { country_event = 1501 }
			ENG = { neutrality = -5 }
			FRA = { neutrality = -5 }
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
		}
	}

Note that this is the German decision to offer the pact to the Soviets, and it activates a NAP right then. When I read the event chain I find only one more mention of the NAP, which is another odd bit. This decision (above) trips an event for the Soviets which offers three choices: a)accept, b)reject, c)offer alliance. None of those have any code mentioning the NAP, but each triggers a corresponding event back on Germany. Germany gets either:

a)Soviets accept - this event includes an exact repeat of the NAP code from the original offer, which I am guessing would reset the start date, except that in all likelihood it would still be the same day.

b)Soviets refuse pact - this event makes no mention of the NAP at all, not even to rescind it.

c)Soviets offer unholy alliance - the event has two choices for Germany, to accept or refuse and hold to the Pact. If they accept, an alliance is activated by the code. If they refuse, no mention is made of the NAP just as in option b above.

So near as I can tell this means the NAP that was activated by Germany's offer of the MR treaty would remain in effect no matter what response they get, even if the Soviets refuse! :blink:

I scanned other files looking to see if any of the various flags that can be set have modifiers or actions attached to them, but they appear to be nothing but placeholders to inform the rest of the event chain and prevent incompatible options from being offered. Unless I am missing something, and I very well may be, the pact should begin no later than the day after Germany activates the MR decision, and even then only if they do so at 2300 so that the first tick of the clock forces the reply to happen the next day (I think).
 
Last edited:

ltccone

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Hmm, good question. I have always thought the NAP portion of the treaty went into effect when the Pact was accepted, but it might be that the script doesn't put it into effect until Germany honors the Pact and cedes eastern Poland to USSR. Will try to check that.

Edit: just checked and was rather surprised by what I found. Here is the section of the MR Pact decision file where the chain begins, with the surprising bit bolded.

Code:
	# German Proposal
	molotov_ribbentrop_pact = {
		major = yes
		potential = {
			tag = GER
			not = { has_country_flag = the_molotov_ribbentrop_pact }
			not = { alliance_with = SOV }
			exists = SOV
			exists = POL
			year = 1939	# Initial talks
			not = { year = 1940 }
			not = { war_with = SOV }
			not = { war_with = POL }
			not = { exists = AUS } # Anschluss of Austria
			or = {
				has_country_flag = first_vienna_award
				controls = 2562 # Praha
			}
		}
		allow = {
			POL = {
				not = { faction = axis }
				not = { alliance_with = GER }
			}
			GER = { is_subject = no }
			SOV = { is_subject = no }
			POL = { is_subject = no }
		}
		effect = {
			set_country_flag = the_molotov_ribbentrop_pact
			[B][COLOR="#FF0000"]non_aggression_pact = SOV[/COLOR][/B]
			neutrality = -15
			relation = { who = SOV value = 15 }
			relation = { who = EST value = -75 }
			relation = { who = LAT value = -75 }
			relation = { who = LIT value = -75 }
			SOV = { country_event = 1501 }
			ENG = { neutrality = -5 }
			FRA = { neutrality = -5 }
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
		}
	}

Note that this is the German decision to offer the pact to the Soviets, and it activates a NAP right then. When I read the event chain I find only one more mention of the NAP, which is another odd bit. This decision (above) trips an event for the Soviets which offers three choices: a)accept, b)reject, c)offer alliance. None of those have any code mentioning the NAP, but each triggers a corresponding event back on Germany. Germany gets either:

a)Soviets accept - this event includes an exact repeat of the NAP code from the original offer, which I am guessing would reset the start date, except that in all likelihood it would still be the same day.

b)Soviets refuse pact - this event makes no mention of the NAP at all, not even to rescind it.

c)Soviets offer unholy alliance - the event has two choices for Germany, to accept or refuse and hold to the Pact. If they accept, an alliance is activated by the code. If they refuse, no mention is made of the NAP just as in option b above.

So near as I can tell this means the NAP that was activated by Germany's offer of the MR treaty would remain in effect no matter what response they get, even if the Soviets refuse! :blink:

I scanned other files looking to see if any of the various flags that can be set have modifiers or actions attached to them, but they appear to be nothing but placeholders to inform the rest of the event chain and prevent incompatible options from being offered. Unless I am missing something, and I very well may be, the pact should begin no later than the day after Germany activates the MR decision, and even then only if they do so at 2300 so that the first tick of the clock forces the reply to happen the next day (I think).

Thanks; but the tool tip still shows 1 July '40 for having 100%. The chances of a bug are remote; I just re-installed.
 

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Dunno. You got me stumped. That is not behavior I have seen before.
 

ltccone

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Dunno. You got me stumped. That is not behavior I have seen before.

Something interesting happened. On 12/31/39 the tooltip told me that I needed 200% to break the pact (I had 97.7%), and on July 1, 1940 I would need 100%. Then, on 1/1/40, the tool tip said I could break it NOW. Hmm...
 

Pro_Consul

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So you're saying the game was suffering from a psychotic episode then...

Okay, THAT I have seen before. :p
 

Juan Peron 2

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I always accept the pact and then after I beat Poland I refuse to honor it. That extra territory not given to the USSR makes it much easier to reach Moscow before fall of 1940.

I 've read advice here that it is a good idea as Germany to attack the USSR in 1940. I accepted the MR Pact to use more troops against France, and win faster.

Now, the tool tip shows the MR can't be broken with 100% of troops on the border until July 1, 1940. Is that too late to attack? There is no way I can have 200% on the border to attack before then.
 

ltccone

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I always accept the pact and then after I beat Poland I refuse to honor it. That extra territory not given to the USSR makes it much easier to reach Moscow before fall of 1940.

And how many troops do you leave on the border to deal with a very angry USSR when you attack France and the Low Countries?
 

21oliver

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It may not be as bad as it used to be. In FTM once you took London the Soviets automatically DOW'd you, even if you hadnt taken Poland and shared no land border. Now in TFH many games i annex the UK and the Soviets still dont DOW me for awhile, and its not because of my troops on the border either, sometimes i leave as little as 20 divisions.
 

Juan Peron 2

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Oh, to be clear I am attacking Moscow in 1940. I leave 20 divisions on the border with France, 3 in the hamburg area, 1 in copenhagen, and 1 in northern denmark. I keep influencing Beligum and Nehterlands to keep them out.

And how many troops do you leave on the border to deal with a very angry USSR when you attack France and the Low Countries?
 

ltccone

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Oh, to be clear I am attacking Moscow in 1940. I leave 20 divisions on the border with France, 3 in the hamburg area, 1 in copenhagen, and 1 in northern denmark. I keep influencing Beligum and Nehterlands to keep them out.

I'm my latest game I'm attacking the USSR in 1940, but I took care of France and the Low Countries in '39. I've never even thought of taking on the Soviets first.
 

gunstickuncle

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I've never even thought of taking on the Soviets first.
Yeah I did, but taking out AI France in '39 is just not difficult enough to let them live to die another day. In WW1 Mod however, I consider it a valid strategy to conduct some kind of Anti-Schlieffen-Plan.