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Sea slug
Mar 18, 2002
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The British Offer Their Rationalisations

I suppose it would be unfair to not explain British reasons for the backstab, so here we go.

  • For the past fifty years, England had been sitting in fourth place, weakest of all the western nations.
  • We had a strong economy, but it still lagged behind Spain's and the Netherlands'.
  • Our military was top-notch, especially with regards to naval power.

Taking these facts into consideration, it is obvious that peace would only allow the Netherlands and Spain to both run away with the game, and that war is England's only hope for catching up. This leaves me with a choice -- do I attack Spain, or do I attack the Netherlands?

The main issue, of course, is France. With Napoleon on his way, I want to somehow weaken my economic rivals without giving Nappy an easy chance to rampage across Europe.

Therefore, I started considering the possible scenarios for a western war.

  • England/France/Netherlands versus Spain. The status quo would have led to Spain's destruction as a power and, as such, would have crippled France's main threat. Napoleon would have been a tough critter to hold down after this.
  • England/Spain versus France/Netherlands. This was the original plan. Given naval superiority, as we would surely have had, this situation would be optimal for me, as the French and Dutch colonies fall helplessly to my troops while no other country could make huge gains. However, the Dutch mainland would be difficult at best to invade, and it is questionable how long Spanish defences could last. It's a rather significant risk for Spain to take, though.
  • England/Spain (and/or) Netherlands versus France. Crippling the Napoleonic threat before it starts. However, England would stand to gain relatively little from this arrangement, as France's colonies are not particularly valuable. Spain and the Netherlands would get the choice continental spoils. Alternatively, if it is only England/Netherlands versus France or England/Spain versus France, the continental ally gets squashed. This is, of course, bad.
  • England/Spain/France versus Netherlands. Like England/Spain versus France/Netherlands, except with less risk for the Spanish. This has the added bonus of possibly alienating future France/Dutch relations, cutting off a source of money for Napoleonic France. This is the arrangement that actually happened.

My one hope of winning was, and is, to pick the economic power that I think has the best chance of holding Napoleon back, crippling the other economic power in an attempt to increase English power and prestige (and weakening a possible French ally), waiting for the eventual French war, and hoping that France and my continental ally can fight themselves silly into a stalemate as I feast upon colonies and sneak into first place. In the end, I decided that Spain would be the better choice, for three reasons: Spain was in a better defensive position, and had a better chance of giving Nappy a fight; their economy was weaker than the Netherlands', and thus easier to surpass; and they had fewer victory points, also making them easier to surpass.

I had discussed with you in e-mail and ICQ beforehand the possibility that I would have to backstab you. I had hoped that would be enough. All I can say is that I did not intend to attack you just then -- I would rather have waited a few more years. Those sneaky Spaniards, DoWing like that!
 

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Originally posted by Mrlifford


1) What scenario - 1419 or 1492
2) Which Mod if any
3) Will Satan's bidding system be ready?.... if not then go in reverse vp point order?
4) Are we all playing again? Any new players to add?.....

1. 1492 is more balanced. 1419 could be interesting, though.
2. None? If PE's, then no Persia (or at least some sort of house rule).
3. We could all just post who we want, then see if there are any conflicts. Conflicts could then be decided by reverse VP order.

My nations: 1.Austria 2.Sweden 3.England in 1492

1419: No clue, really. I'll have to check.

4. Yep, count me in. ;)
 

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French rationale for the war:

It was either attack the Dutch, or risk the 3 powers all attacking France. I would rather fight later with Napoleon, than now with no one.

A potential enemy was beaten (though we regret it had to be the Dutch), while France grew stronger.

Spain is now the one to worry about, not France. ;)
 

Elijah

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Amusing tales of how things went down, too bad I haven't heard any resembling the truth. The fact of the matter was France invited me to attack the Dutch, presumably since he feared if he moved without me I would conspire against him. Now who's idea this was in the first place, I can't be sure but I would suspect it was Shigure. In my position, anything was preferable to a battle with France at this juncture. The deal was accepted, and I gave the DOW as I was the one with a CB vs the Netherlands.
 

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Sea slug
Mar 18, 2002
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Originally posted by Mrlifford
No hard feelings should be had about dishonoured agreements at this end stage of the game :D

Yeah, I can become quite the backstabbing bastard as end-game approaches if there's still any hope for me squeezing into first place. Nothing pisses me off more than someone intentionally trying for second or third place when they can try for first instead. :)

For the next game (Starting in 2 weeks:D ) we should start working out the details ahead of time. A few questions spring to mind :)

1) What scenario - 1419 or 1492

1492. 1419 is incredibly unbalanced for half of the countries (cough cough England and France cough), and an AI-bash for the rest (Ottomans). If we're too bored of 1492, something like 1617 might be interesting.

2) Which Mod if any

The original Paradox setup is fine. Maybe use a 1492 scenario with Persia edited in (not beefed up so much as it is in Sir Ebbesen's scenario, though!).

3) Will Satan's bidding system be ready?.... if not then go in reverse vp point order?

Shrug, I don't think it makes a huge difference. We're easy-going enough that we can just choose countries on a whim.

For what it's worth, I want to play:
  1. Sweden
  2. Ottoman Empire
  3. Spain
 

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Originally posted by manitou333
Yeah who's afraid of France, limitless mp pool and godlike leaders comming... totally a nonthreat :)

Mike D.

An economy would be nice as well. ;)

My economy is holding me back, while Spain is now the clear leader in that field.
 

selfparody

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Hi guys. I've been waiting for your games to end actually. I'd like to join your new one if you'll have me. You know how to get a hold of me if it's cool.

And although I'm sure it means I'll be eliminated, lately I've been obsessed with making one of the tiny majors big. Like Brandy or Venice.
 
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Next Game

For the next game, i would like to do as follows:

1) either 1419 or 1492 is fine by me--- I am not particularly excited about 1617, etc, as it does not give me enough time to really destroy my nation. I like the idea of 1419. it seems to provide more open-ended lines of development, but am not experienced enough to respond to others concerns of balance, although imbalance itself might be interesting--the idea that we are all AI bashing except for France and England locked in death spiral is a concern.

2)nations:
1. Ottomans
2. France
3. anything really

3)mods--maybe just standard Paradox. Again, not familiar with most, but I KNOW I don't like the Peter Ebbesen mod with the Uber-Persia, I really, really don't---------really.

4) bidding, reverse VP order or whim is fine by me also, mainly just move everyone around to different countries--if forced to choose a method, I say reverse VP order with any new players last, unless whim and informal somehow results in no conflicts, so we should check that first.

5) I am playing again, and welcome new players as long as they promise not to attack me, ever.
 

El Greco

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Originally posted by Mrlifford
Just for the record here are the VP's as of 1792:

Spain (Basil) - 3540
Holland (Satan) - 3475
France (Kleves) - 3378
England (Shigure) - 2952
OE (MrLifford) - 2861
Austria (Liam) - 2093
Sweden (TAF) - 1468
Russia (Manitou) - 1254
Poland (TPC) - 770


Way to go guys. Congrats Basil. It was a nice AAR to read. :)
 

unmerged(16459)

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Sorry for the off topic, guys.

You do a great job of entertaining, and I really enjoyed this thread in the past weeks. Keep it up.
A few more screenies and AAR's wouldn't hurt next time around... but I'm really not complaining (Still would have loved to see some screenies of the epic battles being faught recently ... or of those yet to come...).

___________________________________________________
Now, for the off topic:

Originally posted by satan
Burning Man will be the last week of August, and that takes priority.


Hi Satan. I tried to PM you but you message box is full....

Way to go! Looking forward to this years burning man as well.
Is this your first time, or are you a regular?

Anyway, it would be nice if we could talk a bit about burning man. So ... if it suits you, answer!

I'm heading to Las Vegas this Weekend, but I'll be back on August 14th. (Just in case you answer ... that's the reason why I do not re-answer emidietly... )

C-ya.
Tricon.
____________________________________________________

Sorry for the interuption.....
 

Mem de Sá

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Originally posted by Tricon
Sorry for the off topic, guys.

You do a great job of entertaining, and I really enjoyed this thread in the past weeks. Keep it up.
A few more screenies and AAR's wouldn't hurt next time around... but I'm really not complaining (Still would have loved to see some screenies of the epic battles being faught recently ... or of those yet to come...).


A little propaganda them :)
If you like pictures look at my AARs in With Cross, Quill and Sword and Europe Unleashed.
Lots of pictures, hehehe

As we are off topiking :D

What is Burning Man? :D
A festival comemorating the inquisition? :D
 
Last edited:

Mem de Sá

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Re: Rethought

Originally posted by TAF

4) choose by reverse VP order, new players last


I still think I should pick first :D
:p :rolleyes:

But in this case, what about using my VPs from Cross game, as I wont be replaying tuesday games for problems of time.

;)

Just kidding
 

unmerged(16459)

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Originally posted by Camisa 10
A little propaganda them :)
If you like pictures look at my AARs in With Cross, Quill and Sword and Europe Unleashed.
Lots of pictures, hehehe

Actually I read most MP AAR's with great interest. And I do like your AAR's.


OT:
Burning man is a gigantic festival (of sorts) in the middle of the northern Nevada dessert. It lasts for 7 days, during which all kinds of freaks, fans, artists, intellectualls and normal people engage in artistic activities, as well as a lot partiing (of course). After 6 days a gigantic man made of straw is burned-> hence the name. (this is the short, short version. A google search will tell you more, as it's really hard to explain what it contains and what it's about.Besides interupting this nice thread. Again my appologies.)
 

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Originally posted by El Greco
Way to go guys. Congrats Basil. It was a nice AAR to read. :)

Er... we're not done yet, you know. The game ends in 1819, not 1792. We have another 27 years of Napoleonic wars to finish first. :D
 

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So far, just by casual picking, we have:

Shig: Sweden
Kleves: Austria
Camisa: Spain
selfparody: Brandenburg or Venice
TAF: Ottomans

So perhaps we can get it resolved this way, though I would prefer a bidding system. ;)
 

Count Drew

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<I want to beat on Kleves with his my own Bourbounaise Offensives>
I bideth for Francais

Minus 100 VPs to begin with

now you have to go lower. and then I go lower, the lowest who wants that country Bingo