Moving Morocco to Europe

[penco]

I am around 1480 in a Morocco game where my mid-game goal is to conquer europe and prevent the European powers from colonizing the new world. I currently own about 2/3 of the Iberian peninsula and half of Italy, and I need to move my capital to Europe to avoid oversea province penalties.

My question is: where is the best place for me to move my capital? The most obvious location is just to put it in Andalucia (which I own) and then form Spain. But how does Spain compare to other culture regions in Europe? I am considering holding off and forming France instead of Spain because I have the impression that France is a richer region. Or maybe even Germany or Italy or GB. Basically, I want as many rich provinces as possible to be within my primary culture to avoid culture penalties and revolt risk. I am concerned about economy and RR only. Not manpower or using cores as a form of expansion, since I already have tons of manpower and a Holy War CB on all of Europe. (For flavor, I plan to mod my country name to something more Islamic afterwards like Andalucia or Moorish France.)

So, which is best?

• Spain
• France
• Great Britain
• Germany
• Italy

If I form Spain as an intermediate step, how difficult would it be to culture-shift to French/German/British/Italian? I've never culture shifted after creating a cultural union, and I'm sure it is not easy (or maybe impossible).

 

[spyker92]

You can't culture shift out of a Union. Andaluscia into spain is probably the best bet.

Or you could do something silly like, Andalusia into England into France/Spain into HRE (become catholic...somehow)

 

[Icendoan]

Germany is probably the best union to go for, as you also get that nice +2 base tax boost. You don't get extra missions and decisions like France or GB though.

 

[calvinhobbeslik]

Germany is probably the best union to go for, as you also get that nice +2 base tax boost. You don't get extra missions and decisions like France or GB though.

+1

 

[Pewt]

If 10% of your tax comes from a culture then you'll ignore culture penalties, so it's still very possible to hold some of the larger cultures, such as Cosmopolitaine, Catalan, and Castilian without being that nation.

 

[penco]

Thanks for the suggestions. I intend to paint Europe Sunni, so becoming HRE is not an option.

There seems to be a consensus that Germany would be best. How feasible is that logistically? By the time I can form Germany, I will likely own all of Europe from Iberia to Britain to Italy to Germany, plus my original holdings in Moroccan Africa. Will it be possible at that point for me to make any of the Germanic cultures my primary? Which German culture is largest?

If the culture shift will be impossible at that point, I will probably settle for Spain while I still have the chance. Thoughts?

 

[yequr]

I think the largest German culture should be Rheinländer at, let's count,...
Switzerland 7
Baden 2
Alsace 1
Palatinate 2
Trier 2
Cologne 1
Aachen 1
Cleves 1
... 17 provinces. And Sundgau. If Prussia is successful, Prussian could become bigger, but probably won't. If you prioritize the area, it should be doable. In case not, just release a fully cored vassal of the bigger culture temporarily.

Edit: 20 actually, forgot Mainz and Frankfurt.

 

[penco]

I didn't even think of releasing vassals to game my culture. Thanks! Now I just need to think of a snazzy name for Moorish Germany. I think I will just change my capital to Rome after all is said and done and make myself the Roman Caliphate. Is there any penalty to having a capital in an unaccepted culture?

 

[sprites]

well , Andalucia is andalucian unless it flipped , you should have more moroccan provinces than that!

 

[unmerged(625280)]

If you are playing 5.2b you lose cores when releasing vassal, but in 5.1 it's okey.

Personaly I would probably form France as tha can be done with Basque as your primary culture and it gives you the most infamy free conquest ( 14 cores on top of what you need to own just from forming ). As it can be formed with Basque culture that means you can culture shift quite early and keep doing whatever conquest you want untill you can/want to form France.

The way I would go about this is by forcing them to release nations and then taking only the 7 provinces you need for form it and then forget the French region untill you form France. At this point you just swoop in and take all that free land.

 

[cuendillar]

If you are playing 5.2b you lose cores when releasing vassal, but in 5.1 it's okey.

Personaly I would probably form France as tha can be done with Basque as your primary culture and it gives you the most infamy free conquest ( 14 cores on top of what you need to own just from forming ). As it can be formed with Basque culture that means you can culture shift quite early and keep doing whatever conquest you want untill you can/want to form France.

The way I would go about this is by forcing them to release nations and then taking only the 7 provinces you need for form it and then forget the French region until you form France. At this point you just swoop in and take all that free land.

Culture shifting into Basque is practically impossible. There are just three Basque provinces at game start (and Navarra takes QftNW as third idea) so it's very impractical to make it the dominant culture. Rheinländer or Cosmopolitaine makes more sense - but Saxon is worthy of consideration too.

Saxon has 12 provinces, of which you need five to form Germany anyway. Might as well take them first. Holding those also put you smack in the middle of the non-Saxon required provinces, so there's always the chance to get lucky with missions or boundary disputes. I think this would be the fastest way, and you'll also get the option to form Prussia first - as that decision doesn't actually require you to be Christian.

 

[penco]

I think I will stick with Rheinlander. As I mentioned, I am not really interested in using the Reconquest CB to expand because I am just going to Holy War everything. I could save myself a grand total of 10-15 BB by forming France and using Reconquest, and then I lose the benefits of the German union. The economic and cultural benefits of the German union are worth that small amount of BB.

As an aside, does anyone have any tips on westernizing when you already have a sprawling empire? I am worried that I am going to be eaten alive by rebels because my stab cost is going to be so high from foreign religion, foreign culture, and lack of cores. I already plan on getting the NI with the -33% stab cost, using Serfdom, building temples, and converting provinces. But I am guessing I am still going to be screwed with that -11 stab hit from the two events and the +50% stab cost.

How reasonable is it to try to take on France and the HRE without westernizing?

 

[yequr]

It's certainly going to be a pain (and so will be the capital move and cultural shift). I'm not sure if Serfdom is worth it since it has so many penalties, but try having high level advisors. ANY 5* or, ideally; 6* advisors, for the +2 stability event (MTTH of 30 years per advisor, longer with only 5*, I think). I think Artists, while their direct stability investment is negligible at that point, also bring a -stab cost% with them if that advisor event fires for them, so they're probably the best.
If you're still overextended and full of non-Sunnis, you actually might want to delay westernization some more until you have more right religion provinces and cores. If you're going to spend decades investing in stability, you might be better off just building the awesome muslim cavalry and western infantry from foreign cores for some more years.

 

[penco]

I had no idea that the +2 stab event was from high-level advisors. I thought it was just a random thing. I will have to do that for sure.

Now that I think about it, I am going to have to move my capital into Iberia asap so I don't get hit with overseas province penalties on all the new land I am conquering. Meh. At this point, it looks like I am going to spend the entire game recovering stab. I really didn't think through the whole start-in-North-Africa thing. Maybe I should just restart as Granada and pray for a miracle against Castille. I've heard it can happen. :sad: