movement speed

[libaithewhite]

i find that movement speed is very hard to achieve. with beefed up mechanized the highest speed you can achieve is 14.4km, compared to the average 4.4km infantryman. there seems to be a mismatch of mechanized and tanks being only 3 and a half times faster than infantry or artillery. i would like to at least understand how paradox has reached this gameplay mechanic that restricts so much of the effectiveness of blitzkrieg.

 

[Corpse Fool]

What sort of thing are you envisioning when you use the word blitzkrieg? Are you thinking about trucks and panzers and halftracks, with the pedal to the metal just cruising across the countryside? That sort of individual vehicle going its mechanical top speed, is what might be known as a tactical speed.

The speeds used in game are loosely, operational or strategic speeds. These include rest times for crews, stops for refuelling, maintenance, other supplies. Just like when the rate of fire of a machinegun is limited by having to stop and reload or change the barrel, its 'effective-rof' gets lowered.

 

[PorkchopSandwiches247]

Surprising you say that because pure motorized divisions on open plains are insanely and comically quick to me lol

The kind of frustrating thing is how insane the terrain and supply modifiers slow everything down. Which…makes sense. But does limit effectiveness of these types of divisions by quite a bit

 

[Vidkjaer]

Surprising you say that because pure motorized divisions on open plains are insanely and comically quick to me lol

The kind of frustrating thing is how insane the terrain and supply modifiers slow everything down. Which…makes sense. But does limit effectiveness of these types of divisions by quite a bit

Some of The combat tactics severely increases the combat speed. And they are dependent on unit hardness

 

[Harin]

In my opinion, nailing down speed in a grand strategy game requires a lot of opinion. Is the goal to determine how far a unit can travel in one hour, or what is possible in one week? Does the speed represent the arrival of the entire division, or is it just the most fit and maintained units in the division? It all matters, unless of course we are trying to make the game fun. Then fun trumps it all and speed becomes arbitrary.

For game play purposes, infantry can fly, never get tired, and somehow, even after being on the march for days, when they make contact with the enemy, all their artillery and logistics are magically in place, and unit cohesion was not reduces at all.

In real life leg infantry cannot advance at 4.0km/hr for very long, even at a tactical level. That speed translates into 96km a day. Hardcore infantry can manage 40km a day, but only for three or so days at at time. Even then, half the infantry has dropped out because they cannot keep up and very little of the artillery, etc... kept up, if horse drawn. That means after three days of hardcore 40km days, the leg infantry division with horse drawn equipment is no long a division sized fighting force anymore.

For units with many machines, like tanks or trucks, they can make sprints, but WW2 tanks especially, break down a lot. A machine heavy unit can move fast, but it is dropping machines on the way. If moving cross country, then the breakdown rate is higher. Factor in rearming and refueling on top of sleep and maintenance and the true grand strategy speed of a machine unit can be anyone's guess. Of course we all want to re-enact the crazy tank dashes we read about during the war, but those are speeds that probably should not be the norm.

 

[marcelo r. r.]

Why u want more than 12km/h? its already outrun INF even if u don't micro....

In hoi2 theres was the helicopter division 20km~26km, its was "fun" but game become incredibly boring/cheesy.

 

[Mister Analyst]

Why u want more than 12km/s? its already outrun INF even if u don't micro....

In hoi2 theres was the helicopter division 20km~26km, its was "fun" but game become incredibly boring/cheesy.

12km/s?

That equates to space travel speeds!

12km/sec x 60 sec/min x 60 min/hr = 12x3600 km/hr = 43,200 km/hr

 

[marcelo r. r.]

12km/s?

That equates to space travel speeds!

12km/sec x 60 sec/min x 60 min/hr = 12x3600 km/hr = 43,200 km/hr

lol,, i edited it.

 

[libaithewhite]

In my opinion, nailing down speed in a grand strategy game requires a lot of opinion. Is the goal to determine how far a unit can travel in one hour, or what is possible in one week? Does the speed represent the arrival of the entire division, or is it just the most fit and maintained units in the division? It all matters, unless of course we are trying to make the game fun. Then fun trumps it all and speed becomes arbitrary.

For game play purposes, infantry can fly, never get tired, and somehow, even after being on the march for days, when they make contact with the enemy, all their artillery and logistics are magically in place, and unit cohesion was not reduces at all.

In real life leg infantry cannot advance at 4.0km/hr for very long, even at a tactical level. That speed translates into 96km a day. Hardcore infantry can manage 40km a day, but only for three or so days at at time. Even then, half the infantry has dropped out because they cannot keep up and very little of the artillery, etc... kept up, if horse drawn. That means after three days of hardcore 40km days, the leg infantry division with horse drawn equipment is no long a division sized fighting force anymore.

For units with many machines, like tanks or trucks, they can make sprints, but WW2 tanks especially, break down a lot. A machine heavy unit can move fast, but it is dropping machines on the way. If moving cross country, then the breakdown rate is higher. Factor in rearming and refueling on top of sleep and maintenance and the true grand strategy speed of a machine unit can be anyone's guess. Of course we all want to re-enact the crazy tank dashes we read about during the war, but those are speeds that probably should not be the norm.

you make a lot of sense, maybe is not that mot and mech are slow, but that infantry is too fast. good point.

 

[libaithewhite]

all the points are valid. just asking for your opinion, don't you have the sense that you cannot turbo your mot/mech for pincer moves in high infraestructure areas, or in plains?

 

[Harin]

all the points are valid. just asking for your opinion, don't you have the sense that you cannot turbo your mot/mech for pincer moves in high infraestructure areas, or in plains?

Your question is valid, I assure you. It is probably a question many of us have asked, especially when we were new to the game. It may also be a reason you got so many responses to your question. We have all had to figure it out. I doubt everyone learned the same lessons, so the advice is bound to be diverse.

Personally, after a lot of play time, I have discovered that the 'fast' divisions are indeed fast. They are so fast, that many players are happy with tank divisions that can maintain 8km/hr. For fun, sometimes players make divisions that can go 12km/hr, or faster, to quickly encircle huge sections of land.

So, why do some players, maybe newer players(?) have trouble seeing this speed? We could guess all day, but there are some reasons that are more probable than others. Personally, I had to learn the following:

• The player's fast units are just not strong enough to get the job done.
• Sometimes the player chooses the wrong place, or the wrong weather, or the wrong terrain, or the wrong supply situation to attack. Some places are to restrictive or have to few tiles for maneuver. Weather can matter, especially if the player's fast units are sub-optimal. Mud comes to mind.
• The player may not know how to use CAS or air superiority.
• If the player's attack is to weak to burn through the AI divisions before reinforcements arrive, then the fast divisions can run out of fuel and supply, and that attack will most likely fail.
• More than once, I have accidently had infantry divisions filling the combat width of the attack and my tank divisions were waiting in reserve to join the fight. In those circumstances, the breakthrough is to slow and the AI reinforces the tile and my attack may fail. It most certainly will be slower. It is much better to stop the attack and relaunch it only with your tank divisions to make sure they are in front. You can add other divisions later.
• Should the player make a fast breakthrough and if the AI still has units, it will start to send some to the breakthrough. Since the game does not have many 'tiles' to place units, this means you will run into these units as you advance past the breakthrough. When these AI units collide with your fast units, they are 'pinned' and cannot advance. If the player's fast units are not strong enough to quickly defeat these AI reinforcements then that breakthrough may fail as more AI units are probably on the way. These delays can lead to the player's fast divisions running out of supply grace and fuel, reducing the fast divisions to a shadow of their combat power.
• The good news for the player is the AI is not really planning the defeat of the player. It is just throwing its units in that direction and the player is running into them, almost by accident. Also, the the AI does not keep reserves. That means all of its units are on the front line, if supply allows. So when the player makes his breakthrough and then quickly defeats the units the AI is haphazardly throwing at them, there is almost nothing to stop the fast divisions. Even 8km/hr is going to look like lighting fast movement as the unchallenged fast divisions break out.
• Before and especially after breakthrough is achieved, the player will need to have infantry, or other units, pinning down AI units, so they cannot break off the front and get in the way of the player's fast divisions. You will hear players say 'Pin', a lot. Pinning is how the player exerts control over the AI divisions. Without pinning, the AI will just keep pulling divisions off the front line to cover the holes made. Personally, when I have made a breakthrough I tend to have some of my fast units pin so the remaining fast units can keep advancing. When the infantry catch up and relieve these fast units that are pinning and defending, I move them forward to help pushing forward.

So the short version is the fast divisions should be:

1. Leading the attack.
2. Strong enough to burn through the initial tile quickly.
3. Strong enough to defeat the random AI units coming toward the breakthrough.
4. Strong enough to pin AI units so other fast divisions can keep advancing.
5. Supported by infantry that pin AI divisions and relieve fast divisions so they can continue taking tiles.
6. Supported by CAS and air superiority, if possible.

Sorry for all the words. Since there are so many players, I am sure there are many other (even better) methods to unleash your fast divisions and paint the map your favorite color.

 

[homerCCCP]

In my opinion, nailing down speed in a grand strategy game requires a lot of opinion. Is the goal to determine how far a unit can travel in one hour, or what is possible in one week? Does the speed represent the arrival of the entire division, or is it just the most fit and maintained units in the division? It all matters, unless of course we are trying to make the game fun. Then fun trumps it all and speed becomes arbitrary.

For game play purposes, infantry can fly, never get tired, and somehow, even after being on the march for days, when they make contact with the enemy, all their artillery and logistics are magically in place, and unit cohesion was not reduces at all.

In real life leg infantry cannot advance at 4.0km/hr for very long, even at a tactical level. That speed translates into 96km a day. Hardcore infantry can manage 40km a day, but only for three or so days at at time. Even then, half the infantry has dropped out because they cannot keep up and very little of the artillery, etc... kept up, if horse drawn. That means after three days of hardcore 40km days, the leg infantry division with horse drawn equipment is no long a division sized fighting force anymore.

For units with many machines, like tanks or trucks, they can make sprints, but WW2 tanks especially, break down a lot. A machine heavy unit can move fast, but it is dropping machines on the way. If moving cross country, then the breakdown rate is higher. Factor in rearming and refueling on top of sleep and maintenance and the true grand strategy speed of a machine unit can be anyone's guess. Of course we all want to re-enact the crazy tank dashes we read about during the war, but those are speeds that probably should not be the norm.

Yeah, I always felt infantry being too fast. I cannot imagine any reason why it should not be slowed down to 3 or even 2 km/h, but I guess there is one.

Terrain modifiers are fine as they are, could be even harsher sometimes in my opinion, especially Mountains, but ok...

 

[CaptainBruh]

What sort of thing are you envisioning when you use the word blitzkrieg? Are you thinking about trucks and panzers and halftracks, with the pedal to the metal just cruising across the countryside? That sort of individual vehicle going its mechanical top speed, is what might be known as a tactical speed.

The speeds used in game are loosely, operational or strategic speeds. These include rest times for crews, stops for refuelling, maintenance, other supplies. Just like when the rate of fire of a machinegun is limited by having to stop and reload or change the barrel, its 'effective-rof' gets lowered.

yes, but one of my gripes with the tank designer is how slow some early tanks are, especially starting historical designs. At the end of the day, tanks will simply travel faster and further because you don't need to stop and rest every few hours.

 

[Joshua Happytree]

with beefed up mechanized the highest speed you can achieve is 14.4km, compared to the average 4.4km infantryman. there seems to be a mismatch of mechanized and tanks being only 3 and a half times faster than infantry or artillery. i would like to at least understand how paradox has reached this gameplay mechanic that restricts so much of the effectiveness of blitzkrieg.

1. Off-the-cuff you can refer yourself to the trial run of Soviet T-34 in March of 1940. 750km in 12 days will give you a "spherical chickens in a vacuum" speed of 2.6km/h. And that was an artificial case of having:
   • The best crews with years of experience provided by manufacturing plant
   • Two recovery vehicles servicing two tanks
   • One of the RVs filled to the brim with all kinds of spares
   • Plus T-34 is rather light tank say by German standards
2. "Average daily speed" is utterly irrelevant. One either speaks about tactical mobility speeds or mileage per day. Mileage per day is because people need to sleep and eat, tanks need to be refuelled and repaired etc. For tactical mobility with VERY experienced crews, over paved roads and with good visibility T-34 was able to make less than 30 km/h. Having a thick fog or dust would drastically limit the speed.
3. Yet since HoI4 emulates operational redeployment rather than tactical one HoI4's infantry and all kinds of mech/mot are way TOO FAST compared to RL. Infantry can walk at 4.4 km/h for some time yet it needs to sleep, eat, rest and arrange accommodations for night as well.

PS Funny thing is for the same conditions -- experienced crews, paved roads, good visibility -- for longer runs tanks of 80s were expected to move at speeds of more or less 30 to 35 km/h Not much difference with "medium light" tanks of WWII. Because the main factor limiting operational redeployment over paved roads is visibility. Fog, dust and nighttime. Second most important is the quality of the paving.

PPS Another funny thing is though being much bigger than "medium light" tanks of WWII hp/tonne ratio of the latest tank variants is just a tad higher.

 

[bitmode]

Terrain modifiers are fine as they are, could be even harsher sometimes in my opinion, especially Mountains, but ok...

Keep in mind distances are naturally longer in rough terrain (i.e. mountains 2x path cost). The movement penalty is an additional slowdown specific to that unit type.

 

[Opanashc]

Plus T-34 is rather light tank say by German standards.

In March 1940, German standards were: Pz-IV Asf C at 18.5 tons. T-34 as designed in 1940 was 26 tons.