"Movement is Attack" system

[unmerged(17541)]

Yes that is one of the great things of the new system - pity though you can issue the order to attack and do it the next hr, break off once you see your eff and then attack another front with no penalties. There should be a 1-2 hr delay at least before combat starts.

F

good point!

what about the following solution:

you can order an attack:


without delay for organization of the attack - 30% ORG loss & 30% combat efficiency mali

with 8h delay for organization of the attack - 20% ORG loss & 20% combat efficiency mali

with 16h delay for organization of the attack - 10% ORG loss & 10% combat efficiency mali

with 24h delay for organization of the attack - no mali


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[unmerged(27537)]

I like the new system very much, will put up a greater challenge for me

Someone here posted that he would too late recognize that a battle is going on, but
1) as already said, you can guess where an attack is likely to occur by looking at the enemies troop movements and

2)In the demo the pop-up message that tells your that your troops are attacked will by default only appear in the game log, but you can set this to show message in a new box (or so) by going to the message options (F10).

 

[Tormodius]

My post was not intended to criticize the new system. I only wanted to find out if there where any other means implemented to forsee an attack.

I think your post was great! :rofl: Especially the "what the hell is this?" part, it started a critical discussion that is neccessary to understand and manage the new system.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

good point!

what about the following solution:

you can order an attack:


without delay for organization of the attack - 30% ORG loss & 30% combat efficiency mali

with 8h delay for organization of the attack - 20% ORG loss & 20% combat efficiency mali

with 16h delay for organization of the attack - 10% ORG loss & 10% combat efficiency mali

with 24h delay for organization of the attack - no mali

hehe - I see you like to complicate things - this might be hard to code. IMO lets keep it simple and get a delay first. Attacking every hr a different front is not a thought out system. Once troops are commited its hard to disengage.

Troops should also regain org at half rate during that "no order" phase.

F

 

[unmerged(37107)]

What do you think it was in WW2? The germans did not tell their polish friends: "We are now leaving germany proper and are starting to move towards you. We are expected to arrive in another 5 days or so. Please send in some reinforcements to make for an interesting battle!" :rofl:

The new system is much more realistic. Allways guessing where will be the attack, where should I send my reinforcements? Will they attack at all? If they attack, is this the main attack or just a feint?
The reconaissance techs are becoming much more important to locate troop concentrations to find places the enemy is massing. And guess where he will strike.

Much Much Much!! better (and more realistic) than the old HoI1 system!

cheers,
Brentor

I agree with this...I played HOI1, and I think this system works better. Yeah, it's a little funky the way you order the attack and BAM you're in battle, but there's all kinds of ways this can be rationalized--the troops are all at the border of the province to begin with, your men have been on the mobilizing long before the actual contact started, the start of the battle doesn't neccessarily mean actual firing it means mobilization two, blah, blah, blah.

Whatever. I like the new system better. I played a little last night, and it was cool trying to see where the Germans were going to attack...I'd see him massing all these divisions in a province, and well, that was a clue as to where he might go...then I'd move dudes over there, and he'd switch it up. It was cool.

 

[unmerged(17541)]

hehe - I see you like to complicate things - this might be hard to code. IMO lets keep it simple and get a delay first. Attacking every hr a different front is not a thought out system. Once troops are commited its hard to disengage.

Troops should also regain org at half rate during that "no order" phase.

F

why should this be hard to code ?

as you already can order your troops to attack at 8:00 in the morning effects reducing ORG are already implemented and adding an additonal combat mali also shouldn't be the problem...

...you only need the difference from the point you give the order to attack until the units are ordered to attack!

...and may some pop-up that explains that you get the mali if you order the attack in less then 24 hours!


EDIT: I think a general delay of 24 hours is wrong - cause you could order your units to attack more or less at once but at the price of lowered efficiency and ORG!


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[unmerged(37107)]

Yes that is one of the great things of the new system - pity though you can issue the order to attack and do it the next hr, break off once you see your eff and then attack another front with no penalties. There should be a 1-2 hr delay at least before combat starts.

F

Uhh...this has nothing to do with the current thread, but how do you break off the attack? I couldn't figure out how to do it. It looks to me like once they're in the attack, that's it you can't do anything with them.

 

[unmerged(16099)]

Uhh...this has nothing to do with the current thread, but how do you break off the attack? I couldn't figure out how to do it. It looks to me like once they're in the attack, that's it you can't do anything with them.

Select the unit and then right click in its starting province.

 

[Camrik]

Delay

Yes that is one of the great things of the new system - pity though you can issue the order to attack and do it the next hr, break off once you see your eff and then attack another front with no penalties. There should be a 1-2 hr delay at least before combat starts.

Fiendix,

I'm surprised you played with the demo and did not notice that there is actually a delay before you can attack another front. For instance, if you support the attack on one front with a division, you wont be able to tell that division to stop supporting that attack and attack/support attack/move somewhere else. The tooltip let you know that the division needs to reorganize itself before it can do anything else (you wont be able to order it anything or anywhere while this lasts).

I am still unsure but I think that the delay is 24 hours. I have not tested it specifically in the demo, but it happened to me several times (though I am not sure of the specific conditions where the delay applies).

The delay is not when you launch a first attack, but when you decide to switch front or after you reach a province you just attacked (and won). Hence it does not answer the point you raised about immediat attack, but if it works like I think it does, it prevents some exploits you think were possible.

Cheers!


Ghis

 

[unmerged(12303)]

Camrik.. please believe me I do my research before I post such stuff. I am after all actually only looking into the combat issues with HOI2 p cant do much more in the demo) for the efficiency FAQ. If you played the game a little more attentively you would realize that there is a 24 delay AFTER you stop combat ONLY if the battle enters the second hr. At least thats the way it works or me. Maybe you have a different demo?

It would be great if everybody would actually did look into the combat mechanics a little more.

F

 

[Gwalcmai]

What happens in the first hour of combat anyway? Is damage dealt during that first hour?

 

[unmerged(12303)]

not that I noticed.. maybe an org hit would be good if somebody breaks off the attack so as not to exploit the system - ie to check what they are up against with 1 cav...

F

 

[unmerged(15350)]

I am still unsure but I think that the delay is 24 hours. I have not tested it specifically in the demo, but it happened to me several times (though I am not sure of the specific conditions where the delay applies).

There is a delay, but it seems to be from the beginning of the combat; I will check the exact amount of time later. If you attack a province with slow troops they are often available immedately to attack again upon arrival. Attacking with fast troops isn't that much of an advantage, since the fast troops have to wait just as long to launch the next attack.

And the fast troops are just sitting there waiting to get blasted...

 

[Camrik]

Camrik.. please believe me I do my research before I post such stuff. I am after all actually only looking into the combat issues with HOI2 p cant do much more in the demo) for the efficiency FAQ. If you played the game a little more attentively you would realize that there is a 24 delay AFTER you stop combat ONLY if the battle enters the second hr. At least thats the way it works or me. Maybe you have a different demo?

It would be great if everybody would actually did look into the combat mechanics a little more.

F

So, you are saying that someone is actually going to attack just one hour and then switch target?? What is the point? I believe the delay system is precisely to prevent a division to support an attack and be ready after the battle is over to immediately support another front.

If there is something I dont see, please enlighten me, because I fail to see what is the advantage of being able to attack one front the first hour and switch to another front right after. Who is going to do that? Unless there is something I dont understand...

Ghis

 

[Gwalcmai]

Like he said in post #32, to see what is on the enemy controlled province. Attack, see what units are on the province, pull right back.

Of course, you can call this "sending in a recce squadron to gather information".

 

[Moltke]

Movement-is-attack is a beautiful thing!

 

[unmerged(8319)]

Who said something about hundred kilometres ??

Between two provinces, your troops are normally located at the frontline, sometimes only a few 100m away !!!
And realisticly, there were fightings at the front all the time, so I doubt, that there happens nothing over weeks if enemy divisions standing against each other

Firstly, let me say that I don't consider the demo a sufficient base for evaluating how the MiA (!?) influences the game. It would best be evaluated over the course of one or more campaigns. Perhaps the gameflow in a full campaign makes the reservations to MiA irrelevant.

That said, you're really ignoring a few basic facts, CPak (and others).

Firstly, there may well be a hundred kilometres to the front. Obviously units in RL would mostly be positioned near the front. But in this game you can attack all adjectant territories instantly. So in your logic that means that ALL units are stationed at ALL the borders simultaneously?? Do they telerport from one section to another when the CiC decides where to attack? Highly unrealistic.

Secondly, the argument that the 'attack is launched when the first shot is fired' is irrelevant. If the shot is fired 100 (or even 10) kilometres from the front, that is no attack. An artillery barrage at best.

Thirdly, I never argued that all attacks should be visible so that they can alway be preemted. Ofc. not. I exactly said that it would have been better to leave the HOI1 system on, but to add more shroud/lower intelligence to the attack so it would not always be seen before it hit. It seems some of you have forgotten that this is actually how it works in HOI1 allready. It's just the degree to which it influences the game that is too low. Or perhaps it's because players in general invest fairly much in electronics?

Fourthly, the MiA benefits the clickfest part of the game, which I dislike. HOI1 is exactly good because those players with ball bearings in their fingers don't have as big an advantage as in 4X games. Now, however, you can sit and clickstart battles, undo them click again and thus try out where the enemys weakest point is. Reconnaisance for free!

I'm really sceptical about this part of the game, but ofc., as I said initially, it may turn out not to be a problem after all since it depends how MiA works together with other mechanisms in the gameflow.

 

[unmerged(15350)]

So, you are saying that someone is actually going to attack just one hour and then switch target?? What is the point? I believe the delay system is precisely to prevent a division to support an attack and be ready after the battle is over to immediately support another front.

If there is something I dont see, please enlighten me, because I fail to see what is the advantage of being able to attack one front the first hour and switch to another front right after. Who is going to do that? Unless there is something I dont understand...

Ghis

If you attack and pause immediately, you get to see the exact defenders; i.e. you can access the combat display and see the defending units. But you can then (without unpausing) tell all the attacking units to quit attacking. They now stop (you are Defeated, but nothing has happened, so it doesn't matter).

Your units are not considered to have attacked, and don't have to wait 24 hours; but you have gained valuable information. I recently used this to capture Paris (on Jan 17); every day at 8:00am I would launch all the attacks, see who was defending, and then only attack when I had an advantage.

 

[Brentor]

Well, if this "recon for free" feature is really around (didn't notice it myself though) it is certainly top priority to be fixed somehow.
I agree that you won't have all troops stationed in two adjacent territories attack each other in an instant, rather more and more troops get involved as the battle lasts.
Concerning the troops beeing 100km seperated from each other: I guess Luxemburg troops have to stationed in Belgium than. :rofl:
Seriously: You might be right that in some occassions, there is a wide "no mans land" between the lines. But to all of my knowledge this is rather the exception than the rule.
As long as we have fixed provinces that define the front rather than a fluid frontline, there will always be these kinds of discrepancies.
There was an old thread by MathGuy somewhere in the HoI1 forum discussing the advantages of a MiA (I like the abrev.) feature. He was actually the first to suggest it and they took it over into HoI2.

cheers,
Brentor

 

[unmerged(17541)]

Seriously: You might be right that in some occassions, there is a wide "no mans land" between the lines. But to all of my knowledge this is rather the exception than the rule.

only judging from playing the demo I would say the "neutral province" is the rule, especially if you have a larger province *or* bad terrain *or* bad weather *or* slow units...

the "neutral" status might be only a very small timeframe under perfect conditions - but 95% of the demo-battles this occures to me!

and as stated earlier in this thread the "neutral" province situation causes many problems and unbalances the game !


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