Most underrated idea groups and overrated?

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jamal bakr

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Underrated: Aristocratic. -1% tradition decay for both navy and army approach the same value as 1% tradition gain as you approach 100 tradition, and if you are going hard this is quite typical. In comparison, you only get 0.5 tradition gain and only in army for Quality. 33% manpower is great, 1 diplomat is great, +1 siege is the hardest pip to get. Autonomy bonus is always nice, and while .5 absolutism is mediocre, its nice for keeping you topped off if you have to hit the war exhaustion button.

Overrated: Defensive. 15% morale and the rest are stinkers.
 
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holyvigil

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Underrated: Aristocratic. -1% tradition decay for both navy and army approach the same value as 1% tradition gain as you approach 100 tradition, and if you are going hard this is quite typical. In comparison, you only get 0.5 tradition gain and only in army for Quality. 33% manpower is great, 1 diplomat is great, +1 siege is the hardest pip to get. Autonomy bonus is always nice, and while .5 absolutism is mediocre, its nice for keeping you topped off if you have to hit the war exhaustion button.

Overrated: Defensive. 15% morale and the rest are stinkers.


+15% morale is nice early. But actually the best idea in defensive for a wc is the - attrition one. It has the highest value of any -attrition and will give you way more manpower than any +manpower due to it being a multiplier to any +manpower modifiers rather than just affecting the base. Even the +army tradition from battles becomes more valuable than morale post 1600s.
 
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I agree completely, Aristocratic is seriously underrated:

-10 Cav Cost/10 Cav Ability -- your mileage may vary
10% tech cost -- nice
+0.5 absolutism and 0.025 autonomy -- ok
+33% manpower -- great
-1 tradition decays -- nice
+1 diplomat -- amazing
+20% merc manpower -- ok
+1 Leader Siege -- amazing

Quantity is superior to Defensive for almost everyone. I think Defensive used to be better, but some of it was re-arranged and some of the mechanics for tradition were changed, pushing Defensive down. Yes, the morale is great early on, but having the bigger armies is better.
 
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grisamentum

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-10 Cav Cost/10 Cav Ability -- your mileage may vary
Yeah, this is why Aristocratic is situational, and not generally good.
10% tech cost -- nice
Miltech only, but yes, nice.
+0.5 absolutism and 0.025 autonomy -- ok
Nah, pretty worthless, because it's trivial to get absolutism to max and autonomy to zero without this idea. All its doing is giving you marginally more for the period before you reach the cap. For autonomy specifically you will be mass lowering in 1610 anyway.
+33% manpower -- great
Yep, good, but several other mil groups/policies provide large +manpower bonuses.
-1 tradition decays -- nice
Pretty nice, yeah
+1 diplomat -- amazing
Nah, pretty superfluous. Lots of different idea groups and policies give an extra diplomat, as well as various regional mechanics outside of ideas.
+20% merc manpower -- ok
Very good early on, actually, especially for tiny starts that need to rely on mercs.
+1 Leader Siege -- amazing
Yep, agreed.

The bigger problem with Aristocratic is the policies; they are generally pretty bad compared to most of the good policies like Quality + Eco (5% discipline) or Quality + Religious (5% morale, 10% siege ability).

The only time I would really plan on going Aristo is if I were somehow going to swap to Horde afterwards, so I could get Aristo + Eco for some very silly -cav cost stacking (and then maybe Expansion for uber-cheap buildings, but this isn't really that helpful), and to otherwise stack cav stuff.
 
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grisamentum

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My own under/overrated:

Overrated: Religious. People are too lazy to get CBs, I guess? But either way, trying to convert stuff is an expensive joke when you're conquering anything quickly.

Underrated: Expansion. -min autonomy in territories is extremely valuable for any large empire, especially one running way ahead of the gov cap techs, and there a few good policies with it (+leader fire, -10% regiment cost, +1 dip rep if you're going for diplo vassalizations).
 
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jamal bakr

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religious is very strong in the reformation. Basically unlimited prestige, all the pope buffs, and the CB is way better than just fabricating claims. It lets you take unlimited provinces for no diplo cost and 75% AE. In the current state of the game you can stack war score versus other religions extremely high much earlier than pre-leviathan. In the reformation as a catholic: malta monument, (-15%), catholic mysticism (-10%) age ability (-20%) and diplo (-20%), you just need a vassal to feed the overextension to.
 
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Kanem Bornu

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Espionage is underrated. AE impact, siege ability, extra diplomat, advisor cost reduction, and passive corruption reduction are all strong to very strong. The policies that go with it are generally quite nice and pair with your chosen military groups. The issue is there are some read duds in there like privateer efficiency and even worse, rebel support efficiency. If you can look past that I think Espionage is a really nice idea group and I take it more than most I'm sure.

Overrated: Humanist. You can just deal with the unrest. Only cases I say Humanist is truly needed is in a world conquest or playing Confucian. Otherwise, situational.
 
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Espionage is underrated. AE impact, siege ability, extra diplomat, advisor cost reduction, and passive corruption reduction are all strong to very strong. The policies that go with it are generally quite nice and pair with your chosen military groups. The issue is there are some read duds in there like privateer efficiency and even worse, rebel support efficiency. If you can look past that I think Espionage is a really nice idea group and I take it more than most I'm sure.

Overrated: Humanist. You can just deal with the unrest. Only cases I say Humanist is truly needed is in a world conquest or playing Confucian. Otherwise, situational.
Not big on humanist, but they're great for hordes.
 

grisamentum

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Espionage is underrated. AE impact, siege ability, extra diplomat, advisor cost reduction, and passive corruption reduction are all strong to very strong. The policies that go with it are generally quite nice and pair with your chosen military groups. The issue is there are some read duds in there like privateer efficiency and even worse, rebel support efficiency. If you can look past that I think Espionage is a really nice idea group and I take it more than most I'm sure.
Epsionage isn't underrated. It's just very definitely the 3rd or 4th best Dip idea group. The problem is that it has to compete with Diplomatic, Influence, and Exploration. Diplo saves you tons of diplo points and reduces AE via Improve Relations, Influence radically extends vassal play and saves you yet more diplo points on annexations, and Exploration is required for certain playthroughs. There just isn't a lot of room for yet another dip group. Is it better than Trade and Maritime, yes. But there just isn't any room for it. If they want to make Espionage a better pick, they need to swap some of the OP stuff out of Diplo and Influence and stick them into Espionage.

Overrated: Humanist. You can just deal with the unrest. Only cases I say Humanist is truly needed is in a world conquest or playing Confucian. Otherwise, situational.
Nah. Humanist is amazing. It reduces AE through Improve Relations, it saves you money through not needing to convert and increasing RU (corruption) and allowing you to have more accepted cultures, it saves you mana on idea costs, etc. It's just all around great. If you are staying intentionally small, then yeah, you don't really need it. But even a casual conquest game where you conquer a few regions will dramatically benefit from it.
 
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MachopPower69

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Overrated: Quantity. Probably the most broken idea group because of the manpower and land force limit.

Underrated: Espionage. Before the update it was quite good before they shuffled the bonuses around. Lower AE, faster claiming, ability to claim for vassals instead of waiting for them to fabricate using the third tab in the diplo screen.
 
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There are many situational policies - hindu and muslim nations (except hordes) often doesn't neet humanist because of high tollerance for heathens (you can get up to 4 only from Dhimmi estate), add to this national ideas, government, monumets etc. Christian nation or Sunni horde expanding in heathen land is something completly different. You can make the same argument for religious, influence, exploration, expansion, economic, trade and others.

Everything depends on the nation you are playing and what you want to achieve
 

Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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Overrated: Quantity. Probably the most broken idea group because of the manpower and land force limit.

Underrated: Espionage. Before the update it was quite good before they shuffled the bonuses around. Lower AE, faster claiming, ability to claim for vassals instead of waiting for them to fabricate using the third tab in the diplo screen.
I don't think these words mean what you think they mean
 
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Nostalgium

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My own most overrated is Quality. I have nearly completely dropped it except if I'm really leaning into Space Marines. The 5% Disc ambition is very nice, but I'm not investing a whole idea group of relatively mediocre ideas for the finisher. The Policies it unlocks are also very good, but I am loathe to call the idea group itself amazing because of everything it comes with. It's like eating a dish you don't like because the side dishes are amazing.

My underrated would be... Mmh, I guess Religious. Don't get me wrong, it's inferior to Humanist in almost every way, but some Catholic nations - Jerusalem in particular comes to mind - can lean into it and convert provinces so memetically fast you are sitting on all the Papal powers constantly, with influence to spare, if you go Crusading. Other than that, it's very good at what it does - it's just that what it does isn't normally needed. I personally tend to rate Religious in the lower ends of Mediocre rather than complete garbage for this reason.
 
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Overrated and underrated, presumably. Overrated means that most people consider it to be better than it actually is, while underrated is the opposite. The 'most overrated' group would be one that's objectively rather weak but widely praised for being great.
Must have got them confused with Overused and Underused. But my point is still there, people use Quantity too much that is feels boring and overpowered. Espionage is quite good but there are better options in Diplomatic idea groups.

(Forgive me if I got Quantity and Quality mixed up. Because the words are so similar in how they are written I got them muddled up like the guy I am.)
 

jamal bakr

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The other reason I like Aristocratic more than either Defensive or Quantity is its good points cannot be replaced with money. +%manpower is an additive modifier with constant returns. Tradition decay on the other hand has exponential returns on stacking (until you are able to basically sit on 95-100% just from normal warring). Buildings and edicts can be used to send your manpower into the stratosphere; the good parts of aristocratic cannot be replaced with money.

Programmers are usually somewhat innumerate when it comes to this issue; maybe 10 patches ago this was most apparent when Paradox didn't conceive of what stacking -%interest rate would look like when the floor was 0.25%; people would just take out loans, build stuff with it, repay the loans with more loans to keep them tidy and reduce the inflation effects, and end the game like 200k+ in debt they never would pay. Tradition decay is exponential, like interest, while manpower or forcelimit are constant. And the only real way to turn money into military tradition is through tons of forts, and the return on that is awful. There is no way to turn money into siege leader pips or into additional diplomats, and mil power is ceilinged at a 5 advisor.
 
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It would be useful to know what player pick rates are these days. In fact, this is probably one of the most useful applications of "pick rate", because rather than actual idea group strength, we're actually TRYING to measure perception rather than reality.

In the past, things like quality and economic were clearly overrated in SP context, while religious/humanist were middle of the pack in pick rate.

Overrated: Religious. People are too lazy to get CBs, I guess? But either way, trying to convert stuff is an expensive joke when you're conquering anything quickly.
Most government forms can't get a 0 DIP CB without picking religious or taking very small gains/war. As a result, most nations shave DIP cost where they can via influence ideas + rivalry mechanic, then tank the extra DIP price tag otherwise.

I've seen more than one very high level player joke that religious is a 2800 ADM cost CB, and that's not too far from the truth. Nevertheless, I've also see them pay it depending on their goals.

These days conversions have also started to tilt back into being possible to keep up with expansion to some extent unless you're doing very fast one tags. Not perfectly, but enough that the unrest reduction matters.
AE impact, siege ability, extra diplomat, advisor cost reduction, and passive corruption reduction are all strong to very strong.
The problem with espionage is that it doesn't scale well. It had a brief niche as a 6th+ pick to mitigate corruption in the terrcorr patches at least.

Advisor cost and corruption reduction are both ducat savings. As far as ducat savings go, they're pretty good, but by mid game the utility is starting to get smaller since you get closer and closer to running +5 advisers + army regardless.

AE impact often goes the same route. After early game, it becomes increasingly more practical to just all-in a religious/culture group region, rack up AE to the cap of 1000, and annex it directly or into subjects. Once you're doing this (and for some players, it's pretty early), AE impact loses a lot of its luster.

Finally, espionage offers extra DIP cost reduction, via more + faster claims. Again, this stops scaling well, because absolutism and -score cost modifiers allow more to be taken, but not for more claims to be made. To the point where if you don't have religious, even influence's finisher offers more savings, until imperialism removes much of this pressure regardless. Claim discount is further harmed by the fact that everyone and their dog will start slapping you with counter-espionage, limiting the + espionage modifier benefit and catching spies often enough to noticeably reduce claim rate...compared to just taking all the things at 0 DIP and similar AE reduction (idea group vs holy war reduction), in practice this isn't so great. It would be somewhat better if it allowed claims bordering claims like the discovery age ability, but I doubt that would push espionage above the top two groups for SP.
Overrated: Humanist. You can just deal with the unrest.
You can "just deal with" most things. However, if you don't have humanist, you will have to fight more rebels, and that implies moving your armies away from enemy borders/offensive war effort and back to kill them. In the mean time, they cost you money through occupation (provinces don't generate income for you) + devastation, and more money/manpower after you kill them via reinforcement cost. For any scenario where you avoid all of this due to humanist, the savings are substantial.

Humanist also saves a marginal amount of admin points via keeping unity high enough to not be penalized for stability, and prevents wrong religion modifiers in newly captured provinces even the instant you take them in a peace deal, so it is part of the recipe for turning captured land into productive land ASAP.

In addition to its improve relations modifier that policy stacks with diplomatic, it's not surprising to see it routinely listed top 4, and it probably deserves that lofty placement in SP. It packages ducat savings/generation like other groups offer with a few unique benefits and snowballs the power offered by provinces sooner than alternatives.

As for mine, for SP:

Influence (underrated): I feel like a lot of players put this off longer than necessary/beneficial, it's worse than diplomatic and administrative on average, but it's still the second best way to reduce price of adding cores to your land and stacks with the best one via policy.

Exploration/expansion (overrated): You can prestige purchase or steal maps, both pretty early in the game. Aside from that, dropping regular colonies is a very expensive endeavor for the amount of/delay in returns. Exploration does at least let you drop colonies to fabricate claims, even if you don't pay for them, but that's now pricier to reach/abandon than previously and you can usually manage this via poaching colonizers or opportunistic peace deals/alliances. The econ benefits of these (including expansion) don't hold up to what you get out of the better groups, even as those groups help you expand more too.

Military groups (overrated, in SP): Quantity is probably the best of this bunch, just because you can carry more fronts simultaneously and more easily manipulate AI perception of your nation. Also makes it easier to threat-check AI stacks while still carpet sieging it down/assaulting forts. But taking any of these, including quantity, before things that make your expansion better in SP is quite a price tag in terms of opportunity cost, all while more recent patches in EU 4's lifetime has reduced the opportunity cost of not picking military in SP (because you can general spam into professionalism, using government/privileges to discount doing so, and gain some significant military benefits/manpower with extra MIL points, which are usually higher value than MIL development in SP).

Note that in MP games with more than a couple players, running the usual 4 expansion speed/efficiency idea groups with no military ideas is a recipe for punishment. How good an idea group is depends on your assumptions and goals. The above assumes SP games with significant conquest (up to and including WC, but not only WC). I don't think naval is ever worthy of consideration in SP for example, but I can envision some scenarios where you'd lose if you don't take it in MP.
 
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jamal bakr

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Exploration is extremely good for portugal at least until you circumnavigate the world (when it should be ditched for diplomatic). I've tried the gimmick where you use the flagship mod (that is still bugged lmao) that gives you unlimited exploration range +mission explorers, too many things can go wrong without save scumming. Colonies are more valuable nowadays than they were in the past, cuba becomes a positive investment in cash much earlier with leviathan colonial options. Fuerte del Moro is an interesting monument for when you start getting money out of your ears, between that, tower of belem and the murud fort in India you get the benefits of a naval idea group but instead just pay for it cash (which you will have tons of). Brazil kind of stinks until you get plantations, but both Mexico and Peru are nice places to get military tradition, cash, manpower etc without spending either admin, dip, or disrupting your vassal power balance. Its also far away from anyone who you care about, so you can pillage capitals to your hearts content to get your own up to absurd heights. The megacities of the australian aborigines are also great places to pillage capitals at. North America is an absolute basketcase this patch, getting coalitioned by the entire continent and attacked by 40k stacks of natives is pretty wild. But its fun, and tbh colonization of the interior of america was too pacific before.

Expansion -10% territory autonomy is amazing, and I think its sufficient to keep it past the age of exploration (when the additional colonists are no longer as useful). The aristo-expansion idea (-15% cost of buildings) is actually an ADDITIVE +15% to rate of exponential growth, which makes how good it is more apparent.

Humanist is still a very good group, but the ability to provoke revolts is really what reduced how "mandatory" it was. Now you just start a second war after the first, and by the time its finished all of your first conquests are between 50-90%, you spend 3 months provoking them all, reducing estate land %, reducing autonomy, all the other stuff you can only do in peacetime, then go back to warring.
 
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