Most Recent News on Certain Legal Issues

[Horseman]

Euhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu
The case is about how similar some of the BattleTech designs are to some RT designs.

No, it's not. You're trivializing a legal tangle that goes nearly three decades back.

What it's about right now is:

• HG's claim to designs depicted by certain artwork. PGI's current line of defense revolves around challenging that claim.
  
• HG's belief that certain designs produced by CGL and PGI are infringing on "their" designs.
  
• HG's belief that HBS' depictions of certain other PGI designs (which HG hasn't claimed agains PGI) are infringing on "their" designs

Even if HG proves it has rights to "it's" designs, proving an infringement would still require establishing what design elements constitute the protectible trade dress of those mecha designs, then proving that CGL, PGI and HBS infringed on those.
If that sounds simple, look up the history of FASA vs Playmates lawsuit, the Heavy Attack E-Frame and the MadCat (Timber Wolf) - Playmates was able to defend the E-Frame as non-infringing even though its' superficial appareance was seemingly "almost identical".

To offset potential problems for HBS ect. please....please... only post empirical data on this topic, avoid all speculation, and then when exhausting empirical data allow this topic to rest unless new information comes to light or an announcement by HBS is made. We don't want to shut down discussion as new MechWarriors join us and might need to be brought up to speed, but it has to be done, carefully, responsibly and respectfully, or we collectively shoot ourselves in the foot.
Please do NOT speculate. The idiosyncratic nature of US proceedings encompasses the potential for your speculation (right or wrong) to under certain circumstances become ammunition against us. Please do not speculate, make conjecture, or editorialize regarding the case. This thread is for empirical data. We ask this to avoid unforeseen issues for the devs.
Please don't post any of HG's claimed artwork, and to avoid confusion...for now, any Japanese mecha no matter the source or any of the unseen art. And please avoid mention of their properties or their company name in other areas of the forum. They bump up search results for those search terms and we'd prefer searches for them don't lead them to us so they have less potential fodder in court.Now that we are all up to speed lets all of us remember to avoid conjecture. I know waiting, especially for resolution, sucks but that's what we have to do anyway.

1. Can we link to coverage of the case by Leonard French (Actual Copyright Lawyer™)?
2. Some summaries of the Unseen history have been previously posted on Sarna. Those are, rather obviously, fan-compiled but also fairly exhaustively researched. Can they be linked to?
3. Copies of some of the legal documents related to the case (specifically, public domain files obtained from PACER) are available. Can they be linked to?
4. Copies of legal documents relating to past FASA v Playmates and FASA v HG lawsuits are available, but at third-party websites. Can they be linked to?
5. Copies of some of the legal documents that originate in other cases but are cited by parties here are available (again public domain files from PACER). Can they be linked to?

 

[henzington]

Hopefully this gets resolved as I would love a clan era game similar to Mechwarrior 2 Mercs

 

[pmaura]

How long till the courts decide whether the decision to include Japanese courts isreasonable. It sounds like if the USA courts agree to wait for the Japanese it could be years before it even goes to trial.

 

[KhazadDhum]

And there in lies the rub. We're effectively in a holding pattern for now. All we're going to get as far as updates for a while are going to be filings. There more than likely isn't going to be any summary judgment any time soon, as nice as that would be.
Patience.
I'm more concerned with this game being released soon, and making it a success so we can keep the turn based strategy version alive for a VERY long time.

 

[theliel]

How long till the courts decide whether the decision to include Japanese courts isreasonable. It sounds like if the USA courts agree to wait for the Japanese it could be years before it even goes to trial.

Check pacer or have a lawyer checkfor you.
You'll want to see if a new date or deadline is listed.

Also too, Leonard French is an excellent resource as he both is a copyright attorney but also reviews the actual court filings.

As of now the case is still prepping for discovery and pre trial motions. There's not much more to talk about right now.

 

[Horseman]

Turns out... there is. I misread this as HBS filing for dismissal, when it was actually HG doing so by agreement with HBS.
104 STIPULATION of Dismissal with Prejudice of Defendants Harebrained Schemes LLC, Harebrained Holdings, Inc., and Jordan Weisman by parties (Corning, James)

STIPULATION OF DISMISSAL WITH PREJUDICE
Pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 41(a), Plaintiff Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc.,
and Defendants Harebrained Schemes LLC, Harebrained Holdings, Inc., and Jordan Weisman
(collectively, the “Harebrained Defendants”), by and through their respective counsel of record,
stipulate and agree that all of Plaintiff’s claims against the Harebrained Defendants are
dismissed with prejudice, without an award of fees or costs to any party. This stipulation does
not affect Plaintiff’s claims against the remaining defendants in this lawsuit.

Now, do note... we don't know what exactly prompted this, or if there was some new settlement, but it seems HBS is off the hook now.

 

[me987654]

Turns out... there is. I misread this as HBS filing for dismissal, when it was actually HG doing so by agreement with HBS.
104 STIPULATION of Dismissal with Prejudice of Defendants Harebrained Schemes LLC, Harebrained Holdings, Inc., and Jordan Weisman by parties (Corning, James)


Now, do note... we don't know what exactly prompted this, or if there was some new settlement, but it seems HBS is off the hook now.

Interesting... and that's WITH prejudice; which is very good for HBS.


I will say this does make sense given the claims against HBS in the public filings (which were absolutely absurd)... wasn't one that the ATLAS was a copy of the armored valkyrie or something silly like that?

Since HBS hasn't released a product with the unseen mechs in it there's really nothing to sue them over.

 

[Horseman]

I will say this does make sense given the claims against HBS in the public filings (which were absolutely absurd)... wasn't one that the ATLAS was a copy of the armored valkyrie or something silly like that?

Atlas of an Armored Valkyrie, Locust of Glaug and Shadow Hawk of Spartan.

 

[Nichino]

But PGI still needs to win, or we will never see the Unseen even "in success".

 

[me987654]

But PGI still needs to win, or we will never see the Unseen even "in success".

Agreed - it does show that HBS was being smart; no reason to include those mechs until the case is resolved. It's just bad business to expose yourself to un-necessary liability.

 

[Landsknecht]

HG dropping the suit against HBS means that HG doesn't have to argue the infringements they alleged on HBS's part, which makes sense to me. The alleged infringements against HBS, as noted above, would likely have been extremely difficult for HG to successfully argue. If you make a very far-reaching argument in court, it can have the potential to make the rest of your arguments seem even more questionable.

However, Mr. Weisman (as one of the "HBS Defendants") is also off the lawsuit, which forecloses HG's ability to reference or rely upon any obligations that he might have had under the '90s arbitration agreement. That's an area that HG was hammering for a while.

Also, happy to discuss & clarify generalized questions re: case situation or broad copyright law questions that may be relevant for understanding where the case is at. Not providing legal advice, or specific opinions re: the case.

 

[caedussl]

But PGI still needs to win, or we will never see the Unseen even "in success".

Not necessarily. Given how PGI has doubled down on releasing reseen models, a licensing agreement is also an option (it's either that or refund and compensate everyone who spent real money on reseen models). But that probably would kill the chances of seeing those mechs for in a non-PGI product, as HBS would likely need to also license those designs.

 

[me987654]

HG dropping the suit against HBS means that HG doesn't have to argue the infringements they alleged on HBS's part, which makes sense to me. The alleged infringements against HBS, as noted above, would likely have been extremely difficult for HG to successfully argue. If you make a very far-reaching argument in court, it can have the potential to make the rest of your arguments seem even more questionable.

However, Mr. Weisman (as one of the "HBS Defendants") is also off the lawsuit, which forecloses HG's ability to reference or rely upon any obligations that he might have had under the '90s arbitration agreement. That's an area that HG was hammering for a while.

Also, happy to discuss & clarify generalized questions re: case situation or broad copyright law questions that may be relevant for understanding where the case is at. Not providing legal advice, or specific opinions re: the case.

One of the things I noticed is that HG recently amended their complaint and are now claiming actual copying as opposed to derivative works. It seems to me that's a much taller mountain to climb.... am I out to lunch on that?

 

[Ken-Sw]

Well some good news on this topic at last.
Now I just hope PGI wins big.

 

[Insaniac99]

(Given this news, I sure hope it's okay to talk about on the forums now.)

IANAL, but I do believe that this is both HG and HBS agreeing that HG has no case against HBS and they can't bring it up again.

How this affects unseens in HBS's Battletech or other properties remains to be seen, but I think it is a very good sign.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_33WnIpLEADui_Rh6dqSqtOKgNWRveWQ/view

 

[Bodha]

Case isnt entirely concluded for all parties. Note the dismissal doesnt mention piranha.

 

[deadheadtripster]

Dropped down onto my knees and gave thanks unto The Deities of Mecha.... F**king Hallelujah!

 

[Hasler]

Just means HBS is out. The issue of the unseen will still have to be litigated. If PGI wins then HG will be precluded from ever bringing the Unseen issue again.

Edit: not sure who disagreed with me, but this is basic civil procedure stuff. The controversy is who owns the rights to the mechs. Right now PGI is asserting a res judicata defense to end the case. If that is successful the case will end. HG will be on full notice to never bring this again under penalty of rule 11 sanction. If it is not, the case will move on and preclusion effect will only be given after a decision on the merits. If PGI wins HG is prevented from suing again. If PGI loses anyone using the unseen are fair game.

HGS was dismissed from this suit because the have not violated the asserted IP of HG. If PGI does not win then any use of the unseen will be a new cause of action.

 

[Insaniac99]

Case isnt entirely concluded for all parties. Note the dismissal doesnt mention piranha.

As I noted in the title.

This is still good news as it means HBS who makes this game isn't part of the case and can't be sued on this matter again.

 

[RecklessCaution]

But does this mean that HBS can put the Marauder/Warhammer/etc back in safely, or was this in response to them pulling them out? 'With prejudice' would seem to imply the former to me, but IANAL.