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I say a couple times as the first I had successfully formed the HRE, conquered Navarre (following the rebel emir event) and somehow managed to subdue both the Saxons and Widukid after amassing a huge pagan defensive pact after the event fired. Despite all this I got the annoying event when an assassin wants to play chess and died aged 33.
I've wanted to find out what advice you guys have to play Charlie most efficiently: should I stick to Frankish culture, or adopt German? Would it be possible to vassalise the Pope, if so should I do this before or after forming the HRE? Finally, I've often noticed it's possible to marry the Byzantine Emperor's daughter and thereby attain the Roman Empire achievement.
I'm well aware that the Charlie 769 start is fraught with difficulties: many people I've met avoid it altogether, preferring the 1066 start. Many of his vassals - particularly Aquitaine and Gascony, who have a -50 opinion penalty towards you marked "Hate". I usually give the counts of Dax, Guines to their respective dejure lords and invite his cousins Grif and Karl to my court to prevent Carloman pressing their claims.
I'm a fan of the Germanic black eagle shield and think this compliments the in-game CoA House Karling is afforded. Ideally I'd like to modify the HRE so it is salic premogeniture, not princely elective and make the Pope my bitch vassal in Rome.
Please share your thoughts as to how I can conceivably achieve these goals outlined above. I've still not got the Restore Rome achievement, but as the HRE is what Charlie's all about - it isn't necessary for me to achieve this goal through marrying Anthusa Isaurian.
If defensive pacts are a problem for you, remember that you can turn them off in game rules and still earn achievements.
Culture is really a flavour thing - I'd probably stick with Frankish for role-playing reasons.
You can vassalise the Pope by making someone of your dynasty an antipope and pressing his claim. IIRC, Charlie's formation of the HRE is heavily scripted, and I'm not sure what will happen if you vassalise the Pope before forming the HRE. It'll probably be fine, but maybe drop down a save just in case. If you have to wait for your second son to hit 16 before making him an antipope then the decision may be moot (if you're lucky, you can form the HRE very quickly).
I think that it's Charlie's marriage to Desiderata that eventually gives him a claim on the kingdom of (northern) Italy, which is required to form the HRE. If this is correct, it would probably be a mistake to marry the Byzantine daughter immediately. (Maybe after Charlie divorces Desiderata?)
Top tip: Make sure you choose your demesne so that you get an elector title when you form the HRE. If you happen to lose the emperorship (deliberately or accidentally), this will ensure you can get back in easily. Otherwise, there's no particular advantage to being an elector-emperor (because the emperor only gets one vote, not two, so the emperor will always need to persuade 3 other electors to ensure his chosen successor).
The unique Princely Elective succession might be worth keeping if at all possible, because it gives you +20 vassal limit. If it's possible, it's probably advantageous to find a way to keep princely elective after uniting the HRE with Byzantium. (The goal here is Byz with Imperial government and Princely Elective succession. But I'm not sure of the required order of events: do you have to form the HRE then get Byz, or get Byz then form the HRE? In both cases, you would destroy the HRE afterwards to avoid split succession. To avoid disappointment, I recommend testing with the console.)
However, if you really want to revert the HRE to primo then this can be done without modding: get to max centralisation and abolish the council (ie. absolute rule).
In order to obtain salic primogeniture, must I first ensure all my vassals are Frankish too? I've noticed that AI Charlie often fosters the sons of Thüringia, Gascony dukedoms to ensure this.
Thanks for the defensive alliances point, they were annoying but felt chuffed when I pulled it off. As the Pope, can I do this with Pepin (either leaving him a bastard or legitimise him before sending him to be fostered by the Papacy?)
My last point is can I stay Frankish forever? I'm aware Norse flips to Swedish/Norwegian/Danish etc but am not aware if this applies to Frankish too.
Your character and immediate family can stay whatever culture you want. However, Frankish counties you own will continue to change culture even if you stay Frankish. (Unlike some other cultures, there doesn't seem to be a way to stop Frankish counties from flipping to French/Dutch.) When a county flips, there's a fairly good chance the count (and family) will also flip. Eventually, you'll be the Frankish overlord of a completely non-Frankish realm, with the resulting penalties to revolt risk and opinion.
I looked into this myself a while back, and many folks recommended flipping to French from Frankish, since your vassals will almost always be making that conversion, even if you don't. You can find that old thread below:
I guess this "Embrace Carolingian Renaissance" decision has always been there for Charlemagne, but I never noticed it before. I am well into my run for "The Good Old Days" achievement, and I am wondering what (other than flipping my culture to...
I'll probably stay Frankish whilst playing Charlie, but have his second son after Pepin named "Otto" and raised to become German.
I notice that double-headed eagle of the HRE is closely similar to East Francia, but isn't an exact imitation of the graphics used in the start games which feature the HRE (920 & after) is there a way to get this, or should I stick to make East Francia my primary before forming the HRE?
Lastly jonjowett's post about choosing your demesne was good advice here, if I want the East Francia flag design am I forced to make my capital Trier or Köln? They appear to be all bishoprics, but am aware you can make them feudal but giving out a barony and then the title itself to a son.
You can always mod the graphics to your taste, if the other way is too cumbersome. (Remember, with your chosen start date, there is nothing pre-existing to re-create, so roleplaying-wise, your character can design the CoA exactly as he wants.)
@jonjowett I'm still unaware of whether Charlie's bastard Pepin the Hunchback is required to be legitimised to make him an anti-pope with an aim to vassalise the Papacy? I'd rather not, after all the Karlings aren't Habsburgs!
If you form the HRE in the 769 start, the HRE flag is copied from your primary title. (Yes, even if your primary title is a custom kingdom/empire.) If you want the HRE to have the East Francia flag, you need to ensure the kingdom of East Francia is your primary title when you take the decision.
This means that, if the flag of East Francia is a requirement for you, then you cannot hold a normal empire-tier title at the time of forming the HRE. (If you must be an emperor beforehand, eg. because you want to vassalise the Papacy early, then your only option is to create a custom empire based on East Francia. This is expensive.)
IIRC, the flag of the 769 Empire of Germania is pretty similar to the East Francian flag - consider checking it out to see if that's acceptable to you.
@jonjowett I'm still unaware of whether Charlie's bastard Pepin the Hunchback is required to be legitimised to make him an anti-pope with an aim to vassalise the Papacy? I'd rather not, after all the Karlings aren't Habsburgs!
First, you must be an emperor to vassalise the Pope. (See above for "important" considerations about the eventual HRE flag.)
Regarding legitimisation, I'm fairly sure (but not 100%) that it's not necessary - ie. you could keep Pepin as a bastard, make him a high-tier priest, then an antipope, then press his claim, and he will become a vassal Pope. But, since I'm not completely sure, I suggest you test it with the console before your real game.
If you form the HRE in the 769 start, the HRE flag is copied from your primary title. (Yes, even if your primary title is a custom kingdom/empire.) If you want the HRE to have the East Francia flag, you need to ensure the kingdom of East Francia is your primary title when you take the decision.
This means that, if the flag of East Francia is a requirement for you, then you cannot hold a normal empire-tier title at the time of forming the HRE. (If you must be an emperor beforehand, eg. because you want to vassalise the Papacy early, then your only option is to create a custom empire based on East Francia. This is expensive.)
IIRC, the flag of the 769 Empire of Germania is pretty similar to the East Francian flag - consider checking it out to see if that's acceptable to you.
First, you must be an emperor to vassalise the Pope. (See above for "important" considerations about the eventual HRE flag.)
Regarding legitimisation, I'm fairly sure (but not 100%) that it's not necessary - ie. you could keep Pepin as a bastard, make him a high-tier priest, then an antipope, then press his claim, and he will become a vassal Pope. But, since I'm not completely sure, I suggest you test it with the console before your real game.
Just managed to form the HRE with East Francia as my primary title to get the cool Reichsadler CoA - but as I had a battlefield betrayal event he's Karl 'the Traitor' now.. Any chance this will change, or is it permanent?
Was kinda hoping 'the Great' nick would circumvent the earlier unflattering epithet! Just a reminder for vassalising the Pope: I need free investiture and absolute ruler (?) to make Pepin my Pope-vassal in Rome?
As for the CoA, it'll have to be the double-headed eagle. I'm aware of how expensive this will be, and imagine the custom Empire of Germania will have to be destroyed so my heirs don't divide up the realms as Charlie's kids did irl at the Treaty of Verdun, 843AD.
Just managed to form the HRE with East Francia as my primary title to get the cool Reichsadler CoA - but as I had a battlefield betrayal event he's Karl 'the Traitor' now.. Any chance this will change, or is it permanent?
Was kinda hoping 'the Great' nick would circumvent the earlier unflattering epithet!
You won't get "the Great" from the decision to form the HRE. However, it is possible that your nickname will be overridden with a "cooler" nickname in the future. You've probably got nick_the_betrayer, which is "average", so anything "cool" or "super cool" would override it. Except that the nickname acquisition triggers aren't always properly used...
NB: nick_the_great is also "average", so the only way you'll get it is from a mis-coded event.
Here's the relevant code, in case you want to investigate further.
As for the CoA, it'll have to be the double-headed eagle. I'm aware of how expensive this will be, and imagine the custom Empire of Germania will have to be destroyed so my heirs don't divide up the realms as Charlie's kids did irl at the Treaty of Verdun, 843AD.
According to the 769 HRE formation decision, all held empires are destroyed and cannot be recreated. (And all personally-held kingdoms are de jure incorporated into the HRE and then destroyed.) So, it's worth personally holding as many kingdoms and empires as possible when you click the button, and you don't need to worry (much) about a realm split afterwards. Better start stockpiling piety!
You won't get "the Great" from the decision to form the HRE. However, it is possible that your nickname will be overridden with a "cooler" nickname in the future. You've probably got nick_the_betrayer, which is "average", so anything "cool" or "super cool" would override it. Except that the nickname acquisition triggers aren't always properly used...
NB: nick_the_great is also "average", so the only way you'll get it is from a mis-coded event.
Here's the relevant code, in case you want to investigate further.
You only need free investiture to appoint an antipope. Absolutism is not necessary.
According to the 769 HRE formation decision, all held empires are destroyed and cannot be recreated. (And all personally-held kingdoms are de jure incorporated into the HRE and then destroyed.) So, it's worth personally holding as many kingdoms and empires as possible when you click the button, and you don't need to worry (much) about a realm split afterwards. Better start stockpiling piety!
Haha, I see. Well the predictable happened. Charlie died aged 47 of an infected wound. The only plus was after sharing what you said about demesne, my son from Anthousa Isauros who I named "Konstantine" inherited the title.
Charlie was greedy so was unable to initiate a saintly bloodline nor achieve in his life a legendary bloodline of his own - which sux. Almost tempted to restart just to remedy this. Didn't push Pepin to the Papacy either, my query here was meant to say can you vassalise the pope if you simply win a war to push an anti-popes claim?
Lastly, as Charlie died a greedy bastard he'll be forever known as 'the Traitor' then? "Charlemagne" is Charlie's whole deal, I'll have to get the great and hope it sticks - ensuring I keep him healthy until a bloodline is secured.
Thanks again jonjowett - I'll finish the Avignon AAR soon, but will probably have to stop when game reaches 1300 or around the time the Templars were rounded up and burned..
No, you only vassalise the Pope if the antipope is of your dynasty. (What I'm uncertain about is whether bastards count as "your dynasty" for this purpose.)
Lastly, as Charlie died a greedy bastard he'll be forever known as 'the Traitor' then? "Charlemagne" is Charlie's whole deal, I'll have to get the great and hope it sticks - ensuring I keep him healthy until a bloodline is secured.
I believe the only way to change your nickname posthumously (without cheating) is to be declared a saint. (NB: Only saints, not pagan venerated ancestors.) So, if you're "Traitor" when you die then you're "Traitor" forever.
No, you only vassalise the Pope if the antipope is of your dynasty. (What I'm uncertain about is whether bastards count as "your dynasty" for this purpose.)
While it's admittedly been quite a while since I last did so, I've always vassalised the pope when pushing an antipope's claim, while being at empire tier. Dynasty doesn't matter, since your antipope is already your vassal.
While it's admittedly been quite a while since I last did so, I've always vassalised the pope when pushing an antipope's claim, while being at empire tier. Dynasty doesn't matter, since your antipope is already your vassal.
I'm trying to speed run it. Would you recommend pushing an antipope to achieve Papal vassalage before/after forming the HRE? I'm trying to get the double-eagle CoA and have thus played as a king until conditions are met to form the Empire of Germania first.
Also, it's proving difficult to found the Empire of Germania before the HRE, as Bavaria is a core kingdom which is unobtainable unless securing for Charlie's cousins Grifo/Karl - in which case it remains just an independent kingdom easily nerfed by pagans after pushing their claims.
The double-headed eagle is definitely what I want though, even if the East Francian one does compliment the Karling CoA somewhat..
N.B. I also wanted you guys opinion as to whether I should try and get crowned right away or wait until I can afford it? Initially I thought the crowing by the Pope *was* that - and so didn't want to go through all the additional expense of the coronation event. Also I thought it prudent to ask how I can get the "L'Eglise, c'est Moi!" achievement during my Charlie runs?
I personally would get out of Frankish just because the dynasty names are often illogical and woefully limited.
Once you unify Francia, you have plenty of options for piety so you can create the titles you need - Saxony, Denmark, the Balkans (complete with multiple DOWs if you know other parties are going to get involved anyway).
I've had games where I'll found Francia, Germania, and Italia and set Germania as primary before establishing the HRE. Huge swaths of core territory, the Imperial Eagle as the COA. The challenge then is to make sure the blob doesn't then run wild on you.
I personally would get out of Frankish just because the dynasty names are often illogical and woefully limited.
Once you unify Francia, you have plenty of options for piety so you can create the titles you need - Saxony, Denmark, the Balkans (complete with multiple DOWs if you know other parties are going to get involved anyway).
I've had games where I'll found Francia, Germania, and Italia and set Germania as primary before establishing the HRE. Huge swaths of core territory, the Imperial Eagle as the COA. The challenge then is to make sure the blob doesn't then run wild on you.
What culture do you usually adopt, Poluit? German, Italian or perhaps a wild card one like Frisian? I usually get the last Prince of Frisia to become a vassal, despite his pagan relative having been done in by Charlie's grandfather..
I tend to go for German (because, well, personal biases lol) and then move my capital to that region if some Slavs managed to eat up bits of Bavaria - though the latter is more for the historical electors. And depending on how you do things, you can have a few wildcard electors because a few title holders have the wrong religion.
I'll sometimes take one of those Frisian heirs and restore his titles. It's one way to tuck a few problem vassals away for a short time.
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