More What Ifs

[Ebusitanus]

So you started to work a couple of months ago... ?
How is that second front one?...have heard so much about it but never actually even seen the map and counters?...Pls pls tell me a war story...I used to love to read those AAR at COMMAND, S&S, General,...and even that nice talk with fellow wargamers. Ever played ASL?

 

[unmerged(3115)]

Isnt it funny how the germany invasion of poland to reunite split germany was frowned upon, yet the allies continual invasion of norways neutrality resulting in her direct invasion. Was looked upon as an alright action by the good guys?

isnt it funny how that debacle cost chamberlain his job, yet sumhow grant the very man most responsible the newly vacated PM role?

Ahhh but thats right, the allies won, we can change history with the stroke of a pen.

 

[unmerged(598)]

Belrick, you need to look at a timeline to get the facts straight. Before the German invasion of Norway, while there was a plan, which at one point was going into operation, the allies did not invade Norway. They violated the neutrality of Norway's waters, by laying mines, and attacking the Graf Spee's supply ship. How this is defined as "continual invasion" is beyond me.

Also, if you look at the map of 1939 Europe, Germany not only invaded and occupied territory they may have considered German, but partitioned all of Poland with the USSR.

Perhaps 1919 might have been the time to object to the Polish corridor, but having signed the Treaty of Versailles, Germany was bound to honor it.

 

[unmerged(5120)]

Originally posted by Ebusitanus
So you started to work a couple of months ago... ?
How is that second front one?...have heard so much about it but never actually even seen the map and counters?...Pls pls tell me a war story...I used to love to read those AAR at COMMAND, S&S, General,...and even that nice talk with fellow wargamers. Ever played ASL?

ASL: yes, but it's not my cup of tea. I never got interested enough to really learn the rules, and that hurts when you play against the real afficionados (especially when your #1 available opponent is Omar Jeddaoui).

Europa AAR: I'd better put that on another thread

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by sean9898
[2] Greece 1943
After Sicily, the natural next step appears to be Italy. Britain engaged in a deception plan before Sicily, leading the Germans to believe that Greece, not Sicily was the next target. What if they decided to hit Greece and not the Italian mainland?

Would Italy have still exited the Axis, and what would the Greek front look like? A similar stalemate, or more chance to outmaneuver than Italy. Pushing through Bulgaria and Rumania perhaps, to knock them out of the war?

Finally, would this landing have been a disaster, or could it have achieved something, an early second front which really aided the Soviets. I would imagine the Germans would defend Ploesti with everything they had, weakening the Eastern Front? Would this have an impact on Normandy, greater than the rather wasteful and low impact Italian campaign.

Greece would be a good "distract operation" for landing in Yugoslavia. Terrain there (hills and mountains) is not as good as in Normandy, but the resistance forces were one of the strongest in occupied Europe so it might have helped a lot. As far as I know this was British alternative for Normandy. It was strongly supported by polish, czechoslovak and yugoslav governments on exile who believed this to be a chance not to let soviets into their countries. Churchills plan was to seize Yugoslavia and quickly head northeastwards and northwards to seize Ploesti oil fields and to join with the soviets as quickly as possible. The next step would be a joined offensive towards west through polish lowlands and Austria. Churchill wanted to organise Normandy invasion as well, but his Normandy wouldn't be the most important allies' war effort spot.

Would Italy leave the axis? I doubt. Why should they?

 

[Agelastus]

Sean9898
Have you come across this alternate WWII before? I'm posting it just as I read that Montgomery is in Singapore (remember a previous "what if" thread?)

http://www.geocities.com/drammos/sealion1.html

 

[unmerged(598)]

Agelastus, thanks for the link. No hadn't seen it before, interesting that someone else found something usefull for Monty to do

 

[unmerged(5120)]

Only problem I see with this alternative timeline is, by the time the Germans are supposed to launch Sea Lion, they had suffered quite heavy air losses over France. In OTL, the Battle of Britain only really started after they got back the 1000+ (I'd say @ 1700 from memory) aircrews the French had captured.
Those losses weren't a big problem for them in finishing France off because they had destroyed almost all units worth mentionning in the French army in the Belgian encirclement. The second part of the campaign was basically mopping up.
How they proposed to seriously fight the RAF without them in this ATL however makes me wonder...

An afterthought:
a related what-if?, but one which really might have happened:
what if the German staff plane hadn't crashed in the Netherlands?

 

[unmerged(598)]

Sir E,

I agree, and it seems like every potential Sealion what-if fails any plausibility test, so you have to accept it as is. Including logistical impossibilities such as staging from French airfields in June/July 1940, or industrial impossibilities such as building heavy bombers without changing tank production, or the classic accelerated navy program where provided Britain and France are kept in a coma for 5 years, Germany can cobble together enough forces to at least attempt the crossing.

If I could change any aspect of WW2 it would be for the RAF to be sufficiently damaged so that the historic Sealion plans went into operation, it would save so much worthless writing and ill thought out variants, and instead we could judge the event with Hitler's other mistakes and wonder "What-if the Wermacht wasn't drowned in the English Channel?" alongside "What-if the 8th army had stopped outside Stalingrad."

 

[unmerged(5120)]

Originally posted by sean9898
If I could change any aspect of WW2 it would be for the RAF to be sufficiently damaged so that the historic Sealion plans went into operation, it would save so much worthless writing and ill thought out variants, and instead we could judge the event with Hitler's other mistakes and wonder "What-if the Wermacht wasn't drowned in the English Channel?" alongside "What-if the 8th army had stopped outside Stalingrad."

How about that one:
In the late thirties, Bomber Command wins its struggle with Fighter Command (you know, like, "the bombers will always get through") so Britain starts the war with tons of bombers but very few fighters?

Or:
Sometime in the late thirties, Göring Falls In Love, quits drugs and resumes acting sort of sensibly (that could have had a major impact on the whole war because he was one of the few who could stand up to Hitler and get away with it).

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by sean9898
If I could change any aspect of WW2 it would be for the RAF to be sufficiently damaged so that the historic Sealion plans went into operation, it would save so much worthless writing and ill thought out variants, and instead we could judge the event with Hitler's other mistakes and wonder "What-if the Wermacht wasn't drowned in the English Channel?" alongside "What-if the 8th army had stopped outside Stalingrad."

Hmmmm............on getting rid of the RAF for "what ifs", why not just send more to die in France? The staff study sets a different minimum requirement for home based squadrons, or politics intrude. Artificial, of course, but then all such speculation is.

I rather enjoyed "France fights on" (shall I call it)-and the Japanese not getting anywhere. Other than Sealion, it didn't seem too implausible, although I did wonder if he'd played WiF when I read about the Balkan campaigns!

Wish I could remember the thought processes that found me it since I started out searching for online material on the history of Suzdal........