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shadow737

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battlecry said:
But relative numerical data will be important. Terrain is represented as a percentage ingame (or at least it very probably will be), so if London is 100% urban, what percentage should a Pittsburg, or a Calcutta, or a Tokyo be?

I'm not making judgements on any of the cities you guys have named, I'm just trying to find a way to make these lists more useful in game terms.
"Big", "Dense" and "Concentrated" are too ambivalent, because there's always somewhere "bigger", "denser" and/or "more concentrated".

Depends then on what amount of territory they chose to have Pittsburgh represent, but if Stalingrad is an urban province for the game, then Pittsburgh which at the time is bigger than Stalingrad with numerous industrial towns surrounding it as well should probably be urban as well.

The game for a long time has de-emphasized non-European map features much of the time. The point I was making is that cities like Pittsburgh and Toledo have the same sort of terrain density that Stalingrad has and if Stalingrad counts then a city, Pittsburgh, that is one of the five top industrial centers in the USA should count as well.

Tokyo always should have been an urban province in the game. Much of Japan at the time and today is either mountainous or urbanized.
 

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Significantly large cities with major rail stations and/or oil/metal/arms production plants should have some urbanization if it's a scalable value. I hope that it is, that way it's not so hard to choose which provinces are 100% urban and which are 0%.
 

Battlecry

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Again, shadow737, I wasn't criticizing your choices (I agree that the provinces you named should be urban) - I was just stating that perhaps for this thread there should be some set factors, so that not every province in Europe/US East Coast/Japan etc has an urban terrain % - because if we go lower than 300,000 or so, and include every good-sized production facility, that's what it's going to be.

Given the nature of these forums, before the game is out we'll have a list of everybody's home town, just so they can see a 1% urban terrain and say "that's my town!", if no limits are set on size/importance.
 

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shadow737 said:
These cities should be added to the list, Atlantic City is not a major US city at the time of WWII, though what should be done is urbanized provinces on the immediate boundary of New York City to represent the highly concentrated nature of the population of that region.

Pittsburgh
Toledo
St. Louis
Houston
Atlanta
Charleston, S.C.
Cleveland

All of these were very well industrialized and heavily populated at the time of WWII with significant population in the immediate surrounding areas as well.

Edit: light urbanized around New York City

I certainly agree with you about Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Cleveland. The other choices are pretty good, but I don't understand the inclusion of Charleston. Charleston had around 100K people living there during ww2.
 

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Revised to include suggestions by Shilo, Franzer, Jolt, Torenico, General_Grant, Kouak, El_Empanda, Shadow737, and Killerrabbit.

Europe:
- London
- Birmingham
- Manchester
- Lisbon
- Paris
- Marseilles
- Lyon
- Madrid
- Barcelona
- Rome
- Milan
- Napoli
- Torino
- Genova
- Amsterdam
- Brussels
- Hamburg
- Essen
- Cologne
- Berlin
- Munich
- Breslau
- Leipzig
- Dresden
- Frankfurt
- Vienna
- Prague
- Budapest
- Warsaw
- Minsk
- Kiev
- Kharkov
- Moscow
- Leningrad
- Stalingrad
- Voronezh
- Kuybyshev
- Gorki
- Istanbul

Africa & Middle East
- Cairo
- Jerusalem
- Baghdad
- Alexandria
- Tehran

Asia/Oceania
- Tokyo
- Shanghai
- Beijing
- Wuhan
- Nanjing
- Mukden
- Guangzhou
- Jinan
- Harbin
- Hangzhou
- Xi'an
- Delhi
- Calcutta
- Bombay
- Singapore
- Hong Kong
- Sydney

Americas
- Washington DC
- New York
- Boston
- Pittsburgh
- Philadelphia
- Newark
- St. Louis
- Detroit
- Chicago
- Norfolk
- Los Angeles
- San Francisco
- Cleveland
- Houston
- Toledo
- Atlanta
- Toronto
- Montreal
- Rio de Janeiro
- São Paulo
- Mexico City
- Buenos Aires
- Santiago de Chile
 

Battlecry

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nigo said:
Tobruk needs to be a "city" in North Africa

Tobruk was and is a town. Many such battlesites can be better represented by fortifications.
 

shadow737

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danielshannon said:
I certainly agree with you about Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Cleveland. The other choices are pretty good, but I don't understand the inclusion of Charleston. Charleston had around 100K people living there during ww2.

Understandable. What I was forgetting at the time was to list it as lightly urban and the others as urban which probably created some confusion. :eek:o

Charleston, S.C. should probably be light urban for the next game if South Carolina is represented by more than three provinces. Otherwise as swamp or hill country with maybe extra fortifications to represent the city itself. :D

Edit: More of a Steelers-Browns thing than anything else really, have to mention a less populous, less industrialized city as being more important than Cleveland at the time. ;)
 
Last edited:

daemonofdecay

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I seem to have forgotten, but does the % of terrain in a province affect all battles in the province, or does it determine what chance it is that the forces will fight in said terrain type.

For instance, a 100% Urban always will give the defend the full Urban defense bonus, but a 50% Urban means that the defender only gets the Urban bonus 50% of the time?

Because if thats how it is, I still stand by my calls for a "Light Urban" terrain type, so that battles in that type of terrain wouldn't get the same bonuses as the full "Urban".

I would use Japan as an example of where this could be used: Japanese cities were mostly made of of very light buildings: light paper and wood homes, for instance, that would not provide the same defense abilities as the sturdier stone/brick/steel buildings in Europe and the US. Some cities did have a number of larger buildings (like factories, government buildings) but the average dwelling in Tokyo would not be anywhere as effective in stoping an attacker as a Stalingrad tenement.

The "Light Urban" terrain type could have smaller modifers than full "Urban" to represent that, while it would still give the defender benefits and reduce the attackers modifers, it shouldn't be to the same as extent as the full, more heavily "Urban" that would represent Berlin, or London, or New York.
 

Battlecry

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daemonofdecay said:
I seem to have forgotten, but does the % of terrain in a province affect all battles in the province, or does it determine what chance it is that the forces will fight in said terrain type.

For instance, a 100% Urban always will give the defend the full Urban defense bonus, but a 50% Urban means that the defender only gets the Urban bonus 50% of the time?

I wanted to know this as well, so I went and re-read the EU3 manual to see how it worked there. And yes, the percentages indicate the chances of a battle being fought on a particular terrain - so daemon's example above is accurate. However:

i) The EU3 system is calculated by "die rolls" - certain terrains, if attacked into will take away from the attackers "die roll" thus reducing the effectiveness of their attack. So in a 70% Forest/30% Mountain province, the attacker has a 70% chance of losing -1 per die roll (forest modifier) or a 30% chance of losing -2 per die roll (mountain modifier). The defender's 'die roll' is unchanged.

ii) It is possible, and might be more accurate for the scale of WWII battles, that the terrain % be recalculated for each 'die roll' rather than only once for the whole battle. This would simulate the progress of the stages of a battle through different terrains of a province, as each time it is the attacker's 'turn' his chance of receiving one or the other modifiers would be recalculated, all in the course of the same battle. So in the first "attack" stage he might be fighting in Forest, while in the second he might be fighting in Mountains, etc.
 

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battlecry said:
I wanted to know this as well, so I went and re-read the EU3 manual to see how it worked there. And yes, the percentages indicate the chances of a battle being fought on a particular terrain - so daemon's example above is accurate. However:

i) The EU3 system is calculated by "die rolls" - certain terrains, if attacked into will take away from the attackers "die roll" thus reducing the effectiveness of their attack. So in a 70% Forest/30% Mountain province, the attacker has a 70% chance of losing -1 per die roll (forest modifier) or a 30% chance of losing -2 per die roll (mountain modifier). The defender's 'die roll' is unchanged.

ii) It is possible, and might be more accurate for the scale of WWII battles, that the terrain % be recalculated for each 'die roll' rather than only once for the whole battle. This would simulate the progress of the stages of a battle through different terrains of a province, as each time it is the attacker's 'turn' his chance of receiving one or the other modifiers would be recalculated, all in the course of the same battle. So in the first "attack" stage he might be fighting in Forest, while in the second he might be fighting in Mountains, etc.

Agreed, it would be great if battles shifted terrain as it progressed if a province has different terrain types.
 

von Sachsen

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battlecry said:
For those of you who don't play EU3, here's what it looks like/what I mean:

'pic'
Is that an In Nomine thing or am I just really unobservant?
 

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von Sachsen said:
Is that an In Nomine thing or am I just really unobservant?

Nope, that's the way it has always been. I didn't really pay much attention to it either until this year though.
 

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danielshannon said:
Revised to include suggestions by Shilo, Franzer, Jolt, Torenico, General_Grant, Kouak, El_Empanda, Shadow737, and Killerrabbit.

Europe:
.............
- Amsterdam
.............

I think Rotterdam should be included (pop ~500.000 at the time): major strategic and industrial city of the NL and one of the reasons the Germans bombed it was that they failed to take (the northern part of) the city.
So i guess an urban and river mix?
 

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battlecry said:
I wanted to know this as well, so I went and re-read the EU3 manual to see how it worked there. And yes, the percentages indicate the chances of a battle being fought on a particular terrain - so daemon's example above is accurate. However:

i) The EU3 system is calculated by "die rolls" - certain terrains, if attacked into will take away from the attackers "die roll" thus reducing the effectiveness of their attack. So in a 70% Forest/30% Mountain province, the attacker has a 70% chance of losing -1 per die roll (forest modifier) or a 30% chance of losing -2 per die roll (mountain modifier). The defender's 'die roll' is unchanged.

ii) It is possible, and might be more accurate for the scale of WWII battles, that the terrain % be recalculated for each 'die roll' rather than only once for the whole battle. This would simulate the progress of the stages of a battle through different terrains of a province, as each time it is the attacker's 'turn' his chance of receiving one or the other modifiers would be recalculated, all in the course of the same battle. So in the first "attack" stage he might be fighting in Forest, while in the second he might be fighting in Mountains, etc.

You are completely overlooking three important points in comparing EUIII to HOI3, even though they will use the same engine:

1. The size of the provinces
2. The shape of the provinces
3. The area of the armies

In EUIII the provinces are many times the size of those in HOI3. Compare the HOI3 Alpha Screenshots such as Dev Diary 6 South East UK to:

screen1.jpg


The East Anglia EUIII province covers the area of 11 provinces in HOI3.

East Anglia, and AFAIK other EUIII provinces are clearly based on historical administrative areas, there was no attempt to distinguish areas on the basis of terrain. It makes sense that such large areas might happen to encompass two or three different terrain types.

In Medieval times a battle would take place in an area smaller than most modern housing estates. In a province the size of East Anglia there clearly was a chance that the battle might take place in plains or marshlands.

I do not believe that Paradox will implement the EUIII system that you have described in HOI3. In a province measuring only around 30km across it makes no sense to suggest that a battle between several division sized units with a frontage of 10-30km, and with a depth of about 20km, that there is only a chance that the battle will take place in one terrain, but it might take place in another.

IMHO the HOI3 provinces are so small that it could be reasonably assumed that the whole province contains a single terrain, without it detracting from the game.

In HOI3, as Johan has explained, the provinces are not based on administrative areas, So they can be made to follow to some extent the real topography. Looking at the grey blobs and such on the HOI3 screenshots which are meant to indicate terrain I see nothing that would clearly indicate otherwise. The terrain features reasonably follow the province boundaries. Where they go over into an adjoining province, I would suggest this is just a measure of artistic licence to break up the map a little and make the topography look more realistic than it would if they stuck rigidly to the province boundaries. You can FE see the same effect with the rivers. A small part of the province of Slough can be seen north of the River Thames, but I would suggest that if you attack Bedford from Slough, there is not a chance that it would be considered that you might be attacking from north of the Thames, and therefore avoid the river crossing penalties. They just want the rivers to look less artificial than they would if they followed too closely the province borders.
 

bairdlander

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Striker475 said:
What I believe needs to be urban:

Europe:
- London
- Birmingham
- (if included) Manchester
- Paris
- Bordeaux
- Madrid
- Barcelona
- Rome
- Amsterdam
- Brussels
- Antwerp
- Hamburg
- Essen
- Bonn (if included)
- Berlin
- Munich
- Dresden (perhaps, major industral centre)
- Vienna
- Prague
- Milan
- Budapest
- Warsaw
- Minsk
- Kiev
- Smolensk
- Sevastopol (or at least some way of implementing MASSIVE PORT HERE)
- Moscow
- Leningrad
- Stalingrad

Africa
- Cairo

Asia/Oceania
- Tokyo
- Osaka? (not sure about 1936 size)
- Nanjing
- Beijing/Beiping
- Shanghai
- Suzhou/equiv (implementing the massive sprawl)
- Guangzhou
- Chongqing (possible? not sure about size of it, although it WAS big enough to become Nat capital)
- Delhi
- Calcutta
- Bombay
- Karachi? (unsure of size)

Americas
- Washington DC
- New York
- Boston
- Philadelphia
- Newark
- Atlantic City
- Detroit
- Chicago
- (if split) Norfolk - the northern area where Newport News and the shipyards are
- Los Angeles
- San Francisco

South America and any other potential Chinese cities I'm not so sure.
no Canadian or Australian cities?
 

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Originally posted by bairdlander
no Canadian or Australian cities?

If you look at some updates some are on there. I looked on the ABS (Aust. bureau of statistics) website and found that in 1933 Sydney had 1235267 people and Melbourne had 991934 people even though that was mostly low density urban sprawl so it would have had less % urban if that helps.
 

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potski said:
You are completely overlooking three important points in comparing EUIII to HOI3, even though they will use the same engine:

1. The size of the provinces
2. The shape of the provinces
3. The area of the armies

In EUIII the provinces are many times the size of those in HOI3...

Yep, you're right - I have no idea if they'll use the EU3 system, it just seemed probable to me given the use of the same engine. You make a good argument, but of course we'll have to wait until we get some more details.
 

unmerged(52694)

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There are a few inherent problems in this whole process. Some people have brought up "stone vs wood" a few times, as well as comparing "(sub)urban sprawl" with "built up urban space". The problem is, the building material doesn't really matter that much, and in fact wood can assist urban defenders more than stone. The reason is that urban defense has its strength in the availability of easily manipulated material (wood sometimes being more maneuverable than stone.... ). The once recognisable city streets are easily altered and reconstructed to tactical advantage IF one side decides to defend the city and one side decides to take it. This was already said, but is by far the most important point thus far. So even if we decide on a lowest limit (say 300,000), what if a "small" province has two cities of roughly 50,000 people that take up 80% of the region's area. If a defender decides to hold one city for as long as possible then back up to the other and do the same, then the urban bonus would surpass that of a 500,000 p. city that only takes up 40% of the province and was maneuvered around by the attack, and tactically withdrew from by the defender. And unless the city is very destroyed (firebombing or something of that sort) it doesn't really matter how the city is put together as long as their is material. I did a large project once on a variety of urban combat situations over the last 150 years, and the common thread was that environmental destruction was essentially useless, as long as there was either a military or a social network to depend on, because space would simply be reorganised.

My point? Well, we WILL have to wait to see how Paradox is going to do this, before anything concretely can be decided, but really almost any of the cities mentioned can be argued to be "urban", and a operational bottom based on population is going to be self defeating. Rather, if there are going to be percentages maybe a bottom line would be 25% (to avoid the "my home town" angle). If there are no % then maybe we should imagine the city being contained in the smallest provinces (medium maybe for the Americas and Asia) and then ask ourselves if the built up area (emphasis, area) is more than maybe 60%-70% or something?