Gunny123

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I know in EU2 we had cavalry, artillery, and infantry but we had only one sprite and all three were mixed into one army. I think it would be nice to break things up a bit like in HOI and make them separate. So you would have separate unique units with separate sprites that of course could be combined into one amry. Some what the same way untits are done in HOI with Cavalry, Infantry and tanks.

I think this would give the game a nice flavor and expand the mod options a lot!
 

AugCaesar

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I'm not overly concerned with this, seeing as historically an army of only one of the 3 main types was not viable. I could see having a cavalry sprite though, but artillery seems useless.
 

jacob-Lundgren

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perhaps different sized units? so people could look at the map and see, ok 3 marching soldiers, medium sized mostly infantry. or maybe 4 soldiers and 2 horses, large unit with a lot of cavarly and infantry. Maybe limit it to 6 figures, so each would represent up to 20k soldiers and anything over 120k is represented by an officer figure?

Basicaly like how civil war generals 2's units changed in apperence depending on size of the unit in manpower.
 

Yakman

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AugCaesar said:
I'm not overly concerned with this, seeing as historically an army of only one of the 3 main types was not viable. I could see having a cavalry sprite though, but artillery seems useless.
what if they army sprites changed form considering what they were doing?
 

unmerged(46341)

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jacob-Lundgren said:
perhaps different sized units? so people could look at the map and see, ok 3 marching soldiers, medium sized mostly infantry. or maybe 4 soldiers and 2 horses, large unit with a lot of cavarly and infantry. Maybe limit it to 6 figures, so each would represent up to 20k soldiers and anything over 120k is represented by an officer figure?

Basicaly like how civil war generals 2's units changed in apperence depending on size of the unit in manpower.

Good idea here.
 

jacob-Lundgren

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daedalus said:
... clutter... I indeed prefer single unit sprites instead of the 6 *blogs* in vicky
most of the early game will look fairly similar since few armies over 20k or 40k men will be running around. And once you breach the 120k barrier it switchs over to graphics of an officer on the march, and your back to 1 single figure. They could even adjust the numbers so the level at which additional figures appear is higher so its much less likely early on to see them.
 
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lol yeah I love using counter on HoI2, they should be on EU3, and look pretty cool too :p
 

unmerged(37948)

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First of all. There are TONS of counter types, not only NATO.

Having played war/strategy game since early 80:s I've encountered all types. Pax Brittanicas for instance would work pretty well here.

I could imagine the Empire at Arms type counters, would be wondeful. Though, minipics is not necessary. Wouldn't work for this stretch of time.

bm
 

Gunny123

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I just hope different unit types and even counters are put into it. I think it would enhance the game play as well as the mod options. Plus I love sprites :)
 

EvilSanta

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Yes,we want counters!We want counters!If you decide to leave counters out,please dont make sprites anything 20-unit monsters but keep them simple.
 

KaRei

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Idea of more units figures in one sprite isn't bad in a core. But problems:
1) if you make a sprite with more figures, it'll be big and it'll cause problems with selecting small scale provinces for example (sprite will cover whole province);
2) if you rescale the sprites to smaller ones, they will not be so detailed and they could end as a color splash;
3) if you rescale only the more-figures sprites, soldiers will look like a dwarfs beside the one-figure sprites.

Choose what version of displaying more-figure sprites you want :D
 

Stingray

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jacob-Lundgren said:
perhaps different sized units? so people could look at the map and see, ok 3 marching soldiers, medium sized mostly infantry. or maybe 4 soldiers and 2 horses, large unit with a lot of cavarly and infantry. Maybe limit it to 6 figures, so each would represent up to 20k soldiers and anything over 120k is represented by an officer figure?

Basicaly like how civil war generals 2's units changed in apperence depending on size of the unit in manpower.

I like this idea :) Although perhaps the officer should be accompanied by some other troops as well, so you don't miss them.
 

KaRei

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I am little bit skeptical about using more figures in one sprite, but I will join you if it will be good worked (no bugs). :)
I fully agree with using sprite of cavalry and artillery when these are in numerical supremacy.
Both of these things will spirit the game. Only infantry is little bit flat in this time. And see combined sprites will increase realistic view on a map.
 

Arilou

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I'd think it shouldn't be as cluttered as Vicky anyway: You really shouldn't be moving around more than say.... 10 armies *maximum* at the same time.

That said; I could see splitting each of the unit types into two (heavy/light) with slightly different stats/roles (Light artillery would give a good firepower boost on the battlefield but not be as effective in sieges, etc. etc.) But any more complexity than that? Na.
 

George LeS

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More unit types?

There have been many suggestions here for more unit types, & a fair amount of resistance to the idea. Looking back over some of them, I have to say that those of us advocating more, haven't done a very good job of making the case. The problem is that most of us have talked a lot about what the units were, but haven't really related that to the battle system. I certainly haven't helped.

I'd like to look at it the other way around, start with the battle system, & see where historical differences in arms would naturally fit in. I'm going to try to be undogmatic about it, too (fat chance). Logically, it would seem that there would be a case for 6 basic types of land units, given that each of the 3 existing types has 2 roles to play, over the course of the game. Both Cav & Inf have fire and shock, Art is negligible in shock, but replaces that with its siege ability. Therefore it would seem the place to start would be by distinguishing those arms which emphasized one factor or the other. The increase in effectiveness of each factor (or it's relative decrease) could still be a function of tech level; but the distinctions of type would remain constant.

With Art, it's easy, there are siege guns from the start, & field guns come increasingly into play. I cannot see a good reason to go beyond that, though--field & siege.

With the other arms, it's more complicated. Inf is the next simplest, in that there was, from the start (1419, 1453, or 1492 -- doesn't matter here), a distinction between the bow- or firearm-based troops, & the shock (spear or sometimes sword armed) troops. This remains true until about 1700, when bayonets replaced the spear (at some cost in shock, but a big gain in cost-effectiveness). So, for the 15th - 17th C's, it would seem easy to make a case for 2 Infantry arms.

Is there a strong reason to distinguish the bow & the firearm? The strongest case I can see is that 2 majors, England & Turkey, did retain the bow much longer than others, & the Turks, at least, continued to be successful with it. (And IIRC, the problem with the longbow was cultural/economic, rather than a matter of effectiveness in the field.)

With Cav we have the strongest problem, in that we have a very clear difference between cultures, in the time when fire becomes an issue. In W Europe horse archers just weren't really a factor. (It is true, however, that archers were very often mounted infantry; so perhaps they should have Cav movement rates, but be treated as foot in battle.) But again, if you look East, you see the dominance of the horse archer, from the start of the period, as had been the case for many centuries. This, IMO, is the very clearest case for a new unit type; it is simply absurd to have 0-fire cavalry as the dominant arm of the Ottoman Empire. IIRC, the crossbow was ubiquitous in the Chinese army, until very late in the EU period.

In Europe, the picture is murkier. In the late 16th/early 17th C, there was a trend toward a more fire-oriented cavalry, but after the 30 Years War, the trend varies, again, for each country. Frederick even took pistols from his heavy Cav, entirely.

This line of reasoning leads to more types, as we now have to look at national differences. Perhaps the simplest way to handle it would be heavy-medium-light, representing all-shock, mixed, & (almost) all-fire Cavalry. (I'm not going to even think about dragoons).

At sea, I have less to say, for 2 reasons. (1) The naval system is very much the poor relation here, as is the case with most games which are not explicitly naval games, & (2) I'm a naval buff, & am well aware of my inclination to want more detail than a normal person would. However, there is one area where I do see a distinction to work on, that of the difference between the battle fleets & the trade/imperial fleets. This distinction already exists in embryo, in the handling of pirates & privateers, and in the way galleys are pretty much limited to battle fleet roles. In so far as this could be extended, the distinction is between numerous, mostly smaller (=cheaper) ships on the high seas, and big expensive ships in the battle line. By the 18th C, this takes the form of frigates and sloops, versus ships of the line.

Beyond that, I don't want to go, & I'll refrain from my personal hobby-horse of building obsolescence into the system. What I'm trying to do is switch to a bottom-up, or minimalist approach; to try to bridge the gap between those who want lots of types to build, & the "stick with 3" school.
 

unmerged(52850)

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Arilou said:
I'd think it shouldn't be as cluttered as Vicky anyway: You really shouldn't be moving around more than say.... 10 armies *maximum* at the same time.

That said; I could see splitting each of the unit types into two (heavy/light) with slightly different stats/roles (Light artillery would give a good firepower boost on the battlefield but not be as effective in sieges, etc. etc.) But any more complexity than that? Na.

Exactly what I want!

And insted of only give them firepower/shock - movement could also be a third option. Then light infantry would be more movable - but have less shock, light artillery more effective in battles/late - heavy artillery sieges/early.

This gives 6 different units, abselutely enogh. It will also give another dimension of warfare when the different units could match eachother different. Artillery would for example be more effective against heavy infantry and so on...
 

Spruce

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Concerning the unit sprites, I also would like to see a difference in unit size rather then the details of the different "nature" of that unit (f.e. more artillery or less artillery).

Even during Napoleontic wars, intelligence had its limiations ... and details about how many guns or how many horses is not that relevant as it's a bit theoretical.

So I would like to see the difference between a "garrison" (f.e. 1000-5000), "small army" (5000-45.000) and "larger army" (above 45.000). And then when you see the enemy makes his moves, let you react to this forces. I also agree that this intelligence you get might be wrong. F.e. that large army that you have been attacking is nothing more then a small army ... :) and the enemy may be marching for your capital with his large army...

This seems to be more fun imho.

On the other hand, after a battle - when you get more info on the enemy unit. I can agree you can see for a while (one month) how many units are available to that army ... due to a larger impact of intelligence gathering ... the local people can inform you - etc.

this aspect might be more fun to actually play wars in "runs" or "series". So you pull back your army after a first battle - you bring in reinforcments - you check the intelligence on the enemy - and you engage for a second round ...

Also seems to be more fun.

I think we have to be carefull not to give away all the information all the time (that spoils the fun) - but still allow for some element of intelligence gathering so it becomes a more valuable point of game play fun. And I also believe it's essential to become fooled sometimes, as I've always been an opponent to "full mathematical" simulation games.
 
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