More tags to split big countries?
- Thread starter MinhowMinhow
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Even dividing European Russia should be possible.
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I wonder if by the end of the game you might be able to release some post colonial African tags? Since colonialism in this game seems to be (according to that big long Everything We Know So Far reddit thread) a province by province thing (at least some of the time) this would probably have to be a pretty dynamic systen, but it could be cool to force other countrys to release their African colonies if you decide to do a specifically anti-imperialist playthrough. Also, we don't know what happens to decentralized countrys cores when they get colonized so that could complicate things too. Anyway, would be interesting!
I think porting over the dynamic tags feature from Imperator Rome is the answer for this.
WHAT IS THIS?
For those who aren't aware - Imperator Rome came up with an awesome new feature - dynamic tags, that can create entirely new nation tags in any place. Even where none exist (its like client feature in EU4, but far, far better).
Whether through rebellions, adventurers or by voluntarily giving up provinces to establish vassal client states, a new nation tag is created based on the area.
We have had this feature in CK2 and CK3 (dynamic rebels) and HoI4 (representing civil wars, in Germany for example), but they didn't go anywhere beyond rebellions and civil wars and disappeared once the war was done. Imperator's dynamic nations can function as proper nations like any other, and play the game to the end.
Heck, you can even create them where actual tags exist. A new dynamic tag with a similar name, but randomzed flag and colours.
HOW ABOUT A FEW EXAMPLES?
To make it more understandable.
It also works for places where older tags already exist.
Since this is a very new system, I think Victoria 3 should have it as well. This was an era of nation states after all, especially those created out of scratch.
HOW WILL THIS WORK IN VICTORIA?
Simple enough, allow nations to break apart into dynamic tags while also keeping real tags where they are.
With hopefully preset flags and colours for most if not all possible locations. Or a good randomizer script if not.
By that I mean, for example -
It is possible to have dynamic "rebel tags" that appear for a certain time, and then disappear if they fail (or become proper nations if they succeed anyway). Much like in Imperator, a big step up from CK/HoI rebel tags.
That and unitary tags.
See where this is going?
WHERE SHOULD THEY BE BASED ON?
Where Imperator bases it on "prefectures" (the administrative unit below provinces), Victoria could base it on proper states and provinces (and allow us to customize their borders like we can in EU4, please Paradox).
A Deseret dynamic tag for example could be based on state of Utah in case of some wild superpower-backed Mormon rebellion. If California emerges as a dynamic tag, it would be centered on either borders of modern US California or the much larger Spanish/Mexican California.
But it should also allow tiny dynamic tags. Something like Free City of Danzig didn't take up entire state/province of Posen. Putting it out there just because Imperator only allowed creating client states by the province level, no smaller than that, you couldn't relase just once city if you wanted. That should be changed.
It is confusing, I know. But borrowing that feature from Imperator and refining it further can solve the problem of "Hey, why can't we splinter the USA/Mexico/Russia/India/China into new nations" question from every game ever.
TL;DR - Dynamic tags is a good Imperator feature with some nice potential for usage in Victoria. It can create new nation states where none exist (with preset or randomized visuals and stats, its up to the devs), and can be a good solution the issue of splitting up nations into more tags.
WHAT IS THIS?
For those who aren't aware - Imperator Rome came up with an awesome new feature - dynamic tags, that can create entirely new nation tags in any place. Even where none exist (its like client feature in EU4, but far, far better).
Whether through rebellions, adventurers or by voluntarily giving up provinces to establish vassal client states, a new nation tag is created based on the area.
We have had this feature in CK2 and CK3 (dynamic rebels) and HoI4 (representing civil wars, in Germany for example), but they didn't go anywhere beyond rebellions and civil wars and disappeared once the war was done. Imperator's dynamic nations can function as proper nations like any other, and play the game to the end.
Heck, you can even create them where actual tags exist. A new dynamic tag with a similar name, but randomzed flag and colours.
HOW ABOUT A FEW EXAMPLES?
To make it more understandable.
Lets say you are Rome, and you conquer Greece. But after 70 years, because Seleucid Empire in the east keeps fermenting a Greek revolution against you, you decide to give up direct control and establish loyal, autonomous client states to run the area.
You release a client state in the province of Attica.
Attica is a dynamic tag. There was no such thing at Attica at the start of the game - the area at the start was thoroughly divided by a dying republic of Athens, the Theban confederation of Boeotia, three remnant Diadochi imperial outposts and tiny cities like Megara and such. Yet when you create it, a unified new nation of Attica emerges.
In southern Greece you also create the client republic of Achaea (or Peloponnese, or what later became Morea...or whatever, you get the idea). This is another dynamic tag.
There is no such thing as a Peloponnesian nation at the start. Peloponnese does not exist as a unified nation at the start, never has until that point.
In vanilla starting date, it is host of many famous places like the dying kingdom of Sparta, the fallen city of Corinth (now ruled by Macedon), the city of Argos, the host of Olympic games - cities of Elis and Olympia, the numerous cities of Arcadian League (each its own tag), the Messenians, and many more places.
Yet you create a new client republic/federation that unite all of that land into a single tag.
You release a client state in the province of Attica.
Attica is a dynamic tag. There was no such thing at Attica at the start of the game - the area at the start was thoroughly divided by a dying republic of Athens, the Theban confederation of Boeotia, three remnant Diadochi imperial outposts and tiny cities like Megara and such. Yet when you create it, a unified new nation of Attica emerges.
In southern Greece you also create the client republic of Achaea (or Peloponnese, or what later became Morea...or whatever, you get the idea). This is another dynamic tag.
There is no such thing as a Peloponnesian nation at the start. Peloponnese does not exist as a unified nation at the start, never has until that point.
In vanilla starting date, it is host of many famous places like the dying kingdom of Sparta, the fallen city of Corinth (now ruled by Macedon), the city of Argos, the host of Olympic games - cities of Elis and Olympia, the numerous cities of Arcadian League (each its own tag), the Messenians, and many more places.
Yet you create a new client republic/federation that unite all of that land into a single tag.
It also works for places where older tags already exist.
For example - You are Rome. You conquer and completely wipe out Carthage. You can't bother to leave a Legion in Africa to protect the place and deal with the Numidians, because you are too busy roflstomping someone elsewhere.
So you decide to create a client republic based in the city of Carthage. This is not the old ancient republic of Carthage as it existed at the game's start, with its proud green-red-white Tanit banner and its famous world-conquering navy. You are not releasing an existing nation as vassal here like you do in EU4 or HoI4.
Instead it is an entirely new dynamic nation tag. It is called Carthage, sure, but its a different nation with different colour, flag, government structure and sometimes even a different culture, depending on how much "colonization" you've done.
You can do the same in reverse as Carthage. Conquer Rome, release a client state there, and a "Rome" tag will come into existence but it might be green instead of red, have a bunch of ships and coins on the banner instead of the mighty Aquila, and so on. Sometimes it won't be called Rome but Latium instead. The original Rome tag can actually respawn and return with a successful rebellion.
In my game as Egypt I successfully invaded Greece and created a client state in Macedon, even though the original Macedon still existed.
So you decide to create a client republic based in the city of Carthage. This is not the old ancient republic of Carthage as it existed at the game's start, with its proud green-red-white Tanit banner and its famous world-conquering navy. You are not releasing an existing nation as vassal here like you do in EU4 or HoI4.
Instead it is an entirely new dynamic nation tag. It is called Carthage, sure, but its a different nation with different colour, flag, government structure and sometimes even a different culture, depending on how much "colonization" you've done.
You can do the same in reverse as Carthage. Conquer Rome, release a client state there, and a "Rome" tag will come into existence but it might be green instead of red, have a bunch of ships and coins on the banner instead of the mighty Aquila, and so on. Sometimes it won't be called Rome but Latium instead. The original Rome tag can actually respawn and return with a successful rebellion.
In my game as Egypt I successfully invaded Greece and created a client state in Macedon, even though the original Macedon still existed.
Since this is a very new system, I think Victoria 3 should have it as well. This was an era of nation states after all, especially those created out of scratch.
HOW WILL THIS WORK IN VICTORIA?
Simple enough, allow nations to break apart into dynamic tags while also keeping real tags where they are.
With hopefully preset flags and colours for most if not all possible locations. Or a good randomizer script if not.
By that I mean, for example -
California could emerge from rebellion as a new dynamic tag if human player Britain decides to mess with USA, but forcing Belgium to release Congo should just create the already existing tag of Congo the modern nation (like it already can in Victoria 2).
Or you are Germany, somehow you successfully invade and shatter the USA in some wild Kaiserreich style WW1 scenario. You now have 48 new nations (or 20 or 13 or whatever), all being new dynamic tags. Things like "Kingdom of California" didn't exist (because the area was fully loyal to USA), but you created a new dynamic tag there didn't you. If there are preset flags and colours, it will have them instead of randomly generated ones.
On the other hand, you release Ukraine in eastern Europe, and it just comes up with its traditional blue flag and colour etc. Because Ukraine was already a tag.
Another example - you are France, you invade and shatter Mexico into like 4-5 different nations, each of them a dynamic tag (created by you) that didn't exist before. Meanwhile you release Vietnam, which just brings back the already existing Vietnam tag with its classic gold flag with red sun, rather than create a new dynamic client state there.
Or you are Germany, somehow you successfully invade and shatter the USA in some wild Kaiserreich style WW1 scenario. You now have 48 new nations (or 20 or 13 or whatever), all being new dynamic tags. Things like "Kingdom of California" didn't exist (because the area was fully loyal to USA), but you created a new dynamic tag there didn't you. If there are preset flags and colours, it will have them instead of randomly generated ones.
On the other hand, you release Ukraine in eastern Europe, and it just comes up with its traditional blue flag and colour etc. Because Ukraine was already a tag.
Another example - you are France, you invade and shatter Mexico into like 4-5 different nations, each of them a dynamic tag (created by you) that didn't exist before. Meanwhile you release Vietnam, which just brings back the already existing Vietnam tag with its classic gold flag with red sun, rather than create a new dynamic client state there.
It is possible to have dynamic "rebel tags" that appear for a certain time, and then disappear if they fail (or become proper nations if they succeed anyway). Much like in Imperator, a big step up from CK/HoI rebel tags.
That and unitary tags.
Confederates States of America could be a dynamic tag (with preset flags and colours and more). It would appear during civil war, and then disappear after being decisively defeated and suppressed over next 30 years (rather than staying around as a "core" and constantly threatening rebellion in 1910s USA like it did in old Victorias). If it somehow wins, well the dynamic tag functions like any other nation anyway.
Even some natives in Americas could be dynamic tags, if their land treaties were honoured by players for example. They could emerge from a human MP player superpower backed rebellion in the short time they have (no chance on their own), or else go the historical route of disappearing from political relevance by 1890 which means their dynamic tags would also cease to exist instead of remaining as cores forever.
Just an idea, don't take it seriously for now.
China's warlords could easily be dynamic tags. They would run their provinces as miniature nations, but would disappear if China successfully reunited under a republic. Then if China fell into disunity again, new dynamic tags could emerge as warlords. Japan could invade and create Manchukuo. A dynamic tag that would disappear if China retook the area.
Same goes with India and its remnant princedoms. They should all be dynamic tags, since they were never proper nation states, just what remained of old Indian nobility after the absolute chaos of 1794-1818.
- If Mughal Empire reemerges from its deathbed and kicks out the British and reconquer all of India, the princely states would disappear. Back to proper provinces, governors and centralized administration from Delhi.
- Same with Maratha Empire, if they somehow reestablish themselves.
- Same if British manage to annex everyone of them, instead replacing all those dynamic tags with the proper united British Raj/Empire of India tag.
- Same with if Gandhi and other revolutionaries succeed, and india emerges as a modern republican nation state. No more princely states, they immediately disappear.
Congress Poland in Russia is another good example. It should be a dynamic tag, separate from Poland tag (the proper nation state with cores everywhere including in Prussian/Austrian lands) and the Poland-Lithuania tag (the idea of restoring the old commonwealth, another potential dynamic tag). This created issues in Victoria 2 when you could see two of them at once in some mods, because all three were full cores.
Hell, even those numerous German states themselves (with the exception of Bavaria and maybe Prussia) could be dynamic tags. They exist at start, but once Germany is united, they should cease to exist, No more senseless Frankfurt Independence Movement in 1914 like was the case in Vicky2.
Some alt-history mod could have German Confederation (1815-1848) emerge as a proper nation state, should the Prussian king accept the crown and make Austria submit (something that could've happened in history, but didn't). Just a bunch of rambling ideas, before you take it too seriously.
Even some natives in Americas could be dynamic tags, if their land treaties were honoured by players for example. They could emerge from a human MP player superpower backed rebellion in the short time they have (no chance on their own), or else go the historical route of disappearing from political relevance by 1890 which means their dynamic tags would also cease to exist instead of remaining as cores forever.
Just an idea, don't take it seriously for now.
China's warlords could easily be dynamic tags. They would run their provinces as miniature nations, but would disappear if China successfully reunited under a republic. Then if China fell into disunity again, new dynamic tags could emerge as warlords. Japan could invade and create Manchukuo. A dynamic tag that would disappear if China retook the area.
Same goes with India and its remnant princedoms. They should all be dynamic tags, since they were never proper nation states, just what remained of old Indian nobility after the absolute chaos of 1794-1818.
- If Mughal Empire reemerges from its deathbed and kicks out the British and reconquer all of India, the princely states would disappear. Back to proper provinces, governors and centralized administration from Delhi.
- Same with Maratha Empire, if they somehow reestablish themselves.
- Same if British manage to annex everyone of them, instead replacing all those dynamic tags with the proper united British Raj/Empire of India tag.
- Same with if Gandhi and other revolutionaries succeed, and india emerges as a modern republican nation state. No more princely states, they immediately disappear.
Congress Poland in Russia is another good example. It should be a dynamic tag, separate from Poland tag (the proper nation state with cores everywhere including in Prussian/Austrian lands) and the Poland-Lithuania tag (the idea of restoring the old commonwealth, another potential dynamic tag). This created issues in Victoria 2 when you could see two of them at once in some mods, because all three were full cores.
Hell, even those numerous German states themselves (with the exception of Bavaria and maybe Prussia) could be dynamic tags. They exist at start, but once Germany is united, they should cease to exist, No more senseless Frankfurt Independence Movement in 1914 like was the case in Vicky2.
Some alt-history mod could have German Confederation (1815-1848) emerge as a proper nation state, should the Prussian king accept the crown and make Austria submit (something that could've happened in history, but didn't). Just a bunch of rambling ideas, before you take it too seriously.
See where this is going?
WHERE SHOULD THEY BE BASED ON?
Where Imperator bases it on "prefectures" (the administrative unit below provinces), Victoria could base it on proper states and provinces (and allow us to customize their borders like we can in EU4, please Paradox).
A Deseret dynamic tag for example could be based on state of Utah in case of some wild superpower-backed Mormon rebellion. If California emerges as a dynamic tag, it would be centered on either borders of modern US California or the much larger Spanish/Mexican California.
But it should also allow tiny dynamic tags. Something like Free City of Danzig didn't take up entire state/province of Posen. Putting it out there just because Imperator only allowed creating client states by the province level, no smaller than that, you couldn't relase just once city if you wanted. That should be changed.
It is confusing, I know. But borrowing that feature from Imperator and refining it further can solve the problem of "Hey, why can't we splinter the USA/Mexico/Russia/India/China into new nations" question from every game ever.
TL;DR - Dynamic tags is a good Imperator feature with some nice potential for usage in Victoria. It can create new nation states where none exist (with preset or randomized visuals and stats, its up to the devs), and can be a good solution the issue of splitting up nations into more tags.
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How might this work, for example, to carve Nickajack out of east Tennessee and northern Alabama?
As you can only take whole regions, you would have both states, and my idea would be just name it after the most populous region. Just end up with Tennessee
I would like to add some other tags in Spain: Basque Country and Galicia (both missing in Vic2), and Catalonia (which should limit to proper Catalonia, just like in HOI4, and not cover also Valencia and Baleares like in early EU4). These actually appeared as proper nationalist movements until the late 19th, though.
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That would be a bit unsatisfying. You'd be stuck with all those degenerate lowlander Pops.
Vic 2 had a united India and various Princely states. I think it would be cool if there were regional formables. So if you force Britain to let go of India instead of this mess of princely states they would combine into regional tags like Hindustan, Tamil Nadu, Maharasthra, Rajastan, and so forth, but not necessarily a united India either.
EDIT: Although, a separate tag for a free, united India resulting from the Sepoy rebellion could be interesting too.
EDIT: Although, a separate tag for a free, united India resulting from the Sepoy rebellion could be interesting too.
The 1857 rebellion was an interesting one, because the rebelling soldiers and then nobles almost unanimously declared their intention to restore Mughal Empire back to power. The old Indian emperor (by now a ceremonial entity locked in his own palace, busy writing poetry) reluctantly gave them his blessings. That later ended up in British executing the imperial family, annexing the empire, jailing the old emperor in a colonial prison outside India, and eventually Disraeli giving the "Empire of India" ruler title to Victoria.
At the same time, the last prince of the Maratha Empire was fighting among their ranks (he rebelled because the British seized his estates and titles and stopped his pension). Maratha Empire was built to replace Mughals as the rulers of a united India in the 18th century, became a great power and had almost succeeded in unification (both direct and indirect). That is, until their empire began fracturing from 1795 onwards, shrank from rebellions and secessions, and then got annexed by British in 1818.
Maratha Emperors had actually lost their power to their own prime ministers (Peshwa) who essentially ruled the empire like the Shoguns did in Japan, in all but name. This prince was the son of the last one.
He also had his chance and continued to claim the legacy, until he was defeated and disappeared into exile.
So a successful 1857/Sepoy rebellion can have these outcomes -
1 - A unified India under Mughal Empire, with its capital in Delhi as usual.
2 - A unified India under Maratha Empire, with its capital in Pune (the actual imperial capital city, Satara, had already been overshadowed by prime-ministerial city of Pune a century ago).
3 - An India that is only partially united in the north by either of those two dynasties, with southern states either breaking off from the British and going independent, or siding with the British. With the northern empire eventually attacking and annexing them later. This is because 1857 rebellion happened in northern and central India, not in the south.
Clamour for a modern republic rather than restoration of old imperial dynasties came after the rebellion failed and revolutionaries like Gandhi appeared.
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