More Permanent Evasion is Better for Gameplay

[Zythen1975]

And they could probably wipe players out with any old weapon because they were great players. I think that's what @Timaeus is saying.

For the great players (you know, the ones that have played through the game with only the weakest weapons or units and succeeded), I'm sure buffing evasion would just make the game even easier. That's not all players though, and games are (generally) more successful if they don't just cater to the best players.

Just add more option toggles when making a new game

 

[Cain_hu]

And they could probably wipe players out with any old weapon because they were great players. I think that's what @Timaeus is saying.

For the great players (you know, the ones that have played through the game with only the weakest weapons or units and succeeded), I'm sure buffing evasion would just make the game even easier. That's not all players though, and games are (generally) more successful if they don't just cater to the best players.

Actually, making evasion pips permanent would only make the game HARDER and frustrating for not experienced players. Early in the game the AI mostly uses fast light mechs, and a lot of them, against your low gunnery pilots.

I guess this is one of the design reason why we have the current system. So your green pilots won't spend rounds upon rounds to hit a single locust.

 

[stjobe]

Actually, making evasion pips permanent would only make the game HARDER and frustrating for not experienced players. Early in the game the AI mostly uses fast light mechs, and a lot of them, against your low gunnery pilots.

I guess this is one of the design reason why we have the current system. So your green pilots won't spend rounds upon rounds to hit a single locust.

This will also mean that HM/1.8 will be an interesting experience for all of us, since evasion will be unlocked - those enemy Locusts will be generating up to 7 evasion pips instead of maxing out at 4.

 

[Timaeus]

To be clear here, I am not advocating for permanent evasion.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Some of us are becoming quite adept at deconstructing the AI,

Others find the AI to be an exciting and challenging opponent.

That represents an increasingly daunting spectrum of players to satisfy with the base game. It is because of this that I believe HBS introduced Difficulty Settings for BATTLETECH.It is also partly because of this that I believe HBS is soon to officially support Mods.

Both Difficulty Settings and Official Mod Support increase the span of gamers satisfied with their BATTLETECH Experience. What was already fun, is about to get even more so! : )

 

[IceTitan]

I find permanent evasion pips to be frustrating beyond its need. Forces you to depend too much on brawling with mechs not intended to brawl. Makes those + weapons too important rather than just an upgrade.

The A.I. needs a rework until it does I don't think messing with evasion will do anything beyond making things needlessly frustrating at start. Playing the BTA mod and the missions drag on forever because of it which is tedious. Got lucky this start with the more advanced starter mechs and store with the + 1 and +2acc weapons etc.

But permanent evade makes things a chore to get into. Fine for those that like challenges, less so for those trying to get a few missions in during the time they have free.

 

[Blade_mercurial]

One thing you lose with perma-evasion is a slight bit of tactical play that involves timing of your moves.
Things like baiting enemies into an attempted focus fire on your mech whilst reserving, only to have you sprint away to regain all your evasion.
When to step out, when to risk your evasion, taking into account all the enemies that have already fired and such.
Its a very small underutilized tactic, yes. But its something i have done before.

Also, you may want to just standby or get your evasion to max depending on if the enemies heavy hitters have went or not. You dont want your evasion chewed off too early.
Its extra depth to the combat, even if its subtle.

Absolutely! This is where the 'meat' of gameplay is for an 'All Lights' playthrough, and why it is so satisfying to succeed. Because you are juggling so many considerations as you describe. And so this is a major reason why I'm also not advocating permanent Evasion (because I've really enjoyed my All Light play-through and look forward to a new one with Heavy Metal).

I will say though, that this tactical depth won't appeal to everyone (as others have mentioned due to differences in various player skill levels and experience with the game's finer points). So I'm not opposed to changes to the Evasion mechanics if it means helping newer players succeed (because increasing player base can only be good for the game). And for us more experienced players, we will hopefully be able to mod in greater difficulties more easily with 'Full Mod Support'...

I find permanent evasion pips to be frustrating beyond its need. Forces you to depend too much on brawling with mechs not intended to brawl. Makes those + weapons too important rather than just an upgrade.

Actually, I think what you say about + weapons is a big issue in terms of game balance. HBS went WAAAAY over board making the +++ weapons too strong. Because of this, you see threads complaining about how 'useless' pulse lasers are (since +++ medium laser is superior) and then there's the +++ SRM's and LRM's. These weapons are so over-powered, it just removes a lot of the tactical depth when you can effortlessly wipe out enemies with Precision Shot SRMs or knock them down with High Stability dealing LRMs (and then wipe them out while they're down).

Although I haven't seen any mention of tweaking these, I was hoping with the introduction of a bunch of new weapons in Heavy Metal that HBS would realize their mistake and do a balance pass and tone the +++ down. Of course, even if they don't, it should be even easier to mod them with new Mod Support (I hope, but even if they don't, I've already got my weapon.json file with re-balanced weapons ready to load!)

 

[stjobe]

Although I haven't seen any mention of tweaking these, I was hoping with the introduction of a bunch of new weapons in Heavy Metal that HBS would realize their mistake and do a balance pass and tone the +++ down.

They have actually done a balance pass for HM/1.8, but they have tuned the LosTech weapons up, not the plus weapons down.

 

[William Pryde]

Evasion is already extremely powerful in the basegame, to the point that a skilled player can make lights impossible for the A.I. to even damage, let alone destory. That is not just my opinion, but I have an entire recorded series where I take 4 lights into 4+ skull missions and walk away not only undamaged but with the opfor dead in impressively short amounts of (real) time.

I feel like HBS is getting the wrong feedback and advice, especially from the very small multiplayer community who have views that don't reflect the realities of the basegame. I.E. that you can customise and maximize the talents of your pilots, that you can fit +defense gyros, you have lostech, etc.

Modders improving evasion is an issue of not understanding the power of evasion when you stack it, how to move and take turns in such a way to mitigate sensor locks and that you can sprint 3 mechs and fire with only 1 and that can still be a great turn. They are under the impression you need to fire all the time and thus leave mechs exposed and vunerable, which is fine when they have tons of armour but is not how lights are defensively managed.

Changes to improve evasion, will led to gameplay with no challenge once you have that "Lights on" (pardon the pun) moment and fully understand their playstyle. However, very few make that effort, falling very quickly into the "bigger is better" trap without actually exploring making lights work.

Lights and evasion being bad is the biggest misconception in HBS battletech. Once you hit the correct build, have the right pilots and understand the movement logic to keep your tokens at 5 or more, you are basically an unstoppable god. If the A.I. even lands a single shot, it is bad luck.

Would you mind providing a link to this video? I'm very interested in watching so I can improve my gameplay.

 

[Edmon]

Would you mind providing a link to this video? I'm very interested in watching so I can improve my gameplay.

It's an entire series, but I do have a tutorial video on how lights are played.

You can find the tutorial here:

You can find the series here:

 

[Coyotekins]

I also want to say that my first comment did sound sort of pretentious.
I apologize for that.

Its just that im very passionate about this game. And i dont socialize with people very often.
This is one of my favorite games.

 

[IceTitan]

Absolutely! This is where the 'meat' of gameplay is for an 'All Lights' playthrough, and why it is so satisfying to succeed. Because you are juggling so many considerations as you describe. And so this is a major reason why I'm also not advocating permanent Evasion (because I've really enjoyed my All Light play-through and look forward to a new one with Heavy Metal).

I will say though, that this tactical depth won't appeal to everyone (as others have mentioned due to differences in various player skill levels and experience with the game's finer points). So I'm not opposed to changes to the Evasion mechanics if it means helping newer players succeed (because increasing player base can only be good for the game). And for us more experienced players, we will hopefully be able to mod in greater difficulties more easily with 'Full Mod Support'...



Actually, I think what you say about + weapons is a big issue in terms of game balance. HBS went WAAAAY over board making the +++ weapons too strong. Because of this, you see threads complaining about how 'useless' pulse lasers are (since +++ medium laser is superior) and then there's the +++ SRM's and LRM's. These weapons are so over-powered, it just removes a lot of the tactical depth when you can effortlessly wipe out enemies with Precision Shot SRMs or knock them down with High Stability dealing LRMs (and then wipe them out while they're down).

Although I haven't seen any mention of tweaking these, I was hoping with the introduction of a bunch of new weapons in Heavy Metal that HBS would realize their mistake and do a balance pass and tone the +++ down. Of course, even if they don't, it should be even easier to mod them with new Mod Support (I hope, but even if they don't, I've already got my weapon.json file with re-balanced weapons ready to load!)

Lost tech weapons are getting a boost that makes them as dangerous if not more than the normal ones in 1.8 supposedly.

 

[SpectralThundr]

My issue with perm evasion has always been the same. It's also the reason I just didn't enjoy RogueTech at all. It turns the game into rock em sock em robots melee. Not the Battletech I want to play.

 

[jj284b]

I think it kinda depends on how AI would handle it, if it would make it behave better... permanent evasion is kinda two edged sword, and anybody who has experience with Rougetech, will tell you that game becomes quite easy once you gain advanced equipment, as due to defensive bonuses from gyro and stuff, plus permanent evasion, AI wont hit you....

So, if permanent evasion is enabled, AI needs to get something to cope with it better at late stages... It needs to get those advanced weapons and items... so it could be on similar level to player

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I think it kinda depends on how AI would handle it... ...It needs to get those advanced weapons and items... so it could be on similar level to player

Beginning to level the playing field with the AI would do a world of good for increasing BATTLETECH’s replayability IMO. Even more so if this is tied into BATTLETECH’s Difficulty Settings. That way players-new-to-BATTLETECH will not be disadvantaged.

Weapons would be a good start, but also the ability to Reserve Phase when I am Reserving Phase. Removing the Ai’s Prohibition from inflicting Ammo Explosions on the Player to the same extent that the Player can get explode the AI’s ammo.

I hope to suss out what AI refinements might be coming our way in Free Update 1.8...

...but I fear the net result will be that the Player has just been handed big clubs with which to beat the AI about its head and shoulders. :bow: