More Permanent Evasion is Better for Gameplay

[CatGrenade]

Hey all.

I have come of the opinion that a system in which evasion pips generated in a turn are less easily removed makes for a better game. A number of mods do so and my hands on time with them has really shown that shifting the evasion system is for the better.

Evasion being stripped by any gunfire in any quantity limits tactical decisions, weakens faster mechs, and is wonky in balancing a player's few units to an AI's many. It makes sensor lock relatively weaker than multishot (strip up to 3 dispersed vs 2 and no damage). It also lessens inter-weapon balancing options like potentially less efficient damage per heat ton weapons theoretically having value in evasion stripping or bypassing.

Essentially I feel the current vanilla implementation of evasion isn't offering as many tactical options as it should and easily could. It has frustrating and exploitable aspects as is. Letting evasion be countered with skills (sensor lock), morale (precision shot accuracy boost), stability damage system, and a bit of a weapon rebalance to offer less efficient weapons a new clear niche has proven itself to me as a deeper and more enjoyable system to interact with evasion as a means of mitigation than chaining multishots.

I am curious as to the communities thoughts on the current implementation of evasion and especially thoughts regarding the ability of even a single mlas shot to remove a pip. That last part really bothers me, but maybe I have a poor perspective or am missing something here.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[stjobe]

By the time you get to the endgame, keeping evasion up against 2-3 lances or more gets really, really hard, and once evasion is stripped you can only hope you took Bulwark.

As I have stated on several occasions before, I'd be fine with them making it so that only hits or misses stripped evasion, but not both (and I'd prefer hits). This way, high evasion targets are harder to hit longer, but if you get lucky enough to hit them, they get easier to hit with subsequent shots.

 

[Coyotekins]

With the current balance of the game, someone who knows what they are doing would think light mechs would be killer op with perma-evasion.
Especially with the new update further buffing piloting traits to give +hit defense.

Light mechs are not about the evasion... Not at all. Its about the initiative.

Buffing evasion does nothing but give lights an advantage on dice rolls.
[Mod edit: No disrespect, please]
It only enforces further bad tactics from commanders... Just running light mechs out in the open since they have high evasion rather then using the initiative and low profile advantages.

I think all this light mech buffing is counter productive and opens up doors to be exploited by people who use light mechs properly.

 

[Doctor Machete]

I disagree with Multi being better than Sensor Lock, IMO it's quite the opposite, with Sensor Lock being way ahead multi. You usually want to focus damage on one target at a time, so how useful is to remove evasion (and not much) on three mechs?. On the other side Sensor Lock can be used from outside LoS while you remain safe. You can enable long range mechs and only as a bonus you remove a bit of evasion, and then you Precision Shot for another extra +15% base chance to counteract evasion firing from out of most (or all) of the target's reach. Even if Sensor Lock didn't remove any evasion still would be a decent skill, better than Multi imo.
Now, for the permanent evasion itself I don't necessarily disagree (or agree) with you. Perhaps it would be better, not sure because it would depend a lot on the details of the implementation, but this has been discussed a thousand times and the evasion mechanic hasn't been changed. A new rebalance comes with the next patch, not only stats but also weapons, maybe some AI improvements, so probably is better to wait to see how goes in a few days.

 

[Coyotekins]

I disagree with Multi being better than Sensor Lock, IMO it's quite the opposite, with Sensor Lock being way ahead multi. You usually want to focus damage on one target at a time, so how useful is to remove evasion (and not much) on three mechs?. On the other side Sensor Lock can be used from outside LoS while you remain safe. You can enable long range mechs and only as a bonus you remove a bit of evasion, and then you Precision Shot for another extra +15% base chance to counteract evasion firing from out of most (or all) of the target's reach. Even if Sensor Lock didn't remove any evasion still would be a decent skill, better than Multi imo.

Not to mention the debuff that enemies get from the lock as well that negates their aim much like ppc's do.
Sensor impairment. Some people tend to forget locks do that.

A light mech sending out active probes to lock an entire enemy lance down with sensor impaired is a wonderful thing. (assuming you have urban warfare dlc)

 

[CatGrenade]

With the current balance of the game, someone who knows what they are doing would think light mechs would be killer op with perma-evasion.
Especially with the new update further buffing piloting traits to give +hit defense.

Light mechs are not about the evasion... Not at all. Its about the initiative.

Buffing evasion does nothing but give lights an advantage on dice rolls.
[Mod edit: No disrespect, please]
It only enforces further bad tactics from commanders... Just running light mechs out in the open since they have high evasion rather then using the initiative and low profile advantages.

I think all this light mech buffing is counter productive and opens up doors to be exploited by people who use light mechs properly.

To be clear, I am not interested in buffing lights in particular. Given the nature of AI and backstab abuse I think they are OP as hell on a ton to ton basis. I am thinking of fast/overengined mechs in particular as the biggest beneficiaries. Also, mediums in general. I have no particular interest in making lights compete with assaults, but I love me some fast jumpy mediums all game long. Evasion just has been implemented better elsewhere and believe it is improvable here. Quickdraws, cicadas, and banshees are notoriously mediocre due to breakpoints and evasion is just too ephemeral to counteract their drawbacks in vanilla.

 

[Donvale]

Personally I have been playing with the permanent evasion mod for some time now (although only set to 50% chance to strip), I much prefer how the game plays like this.
There is a time and place for multishot versus sensor lock, but given you can strip evasion with even the smallest of weapons it can often be the better option, I will frequently finish off one mech with a bigger weapon while stripping evasion off two others with smaller weapons.
I think completely permanent evasion is probably too much, you don't want a fast mover out in the open to effectively be invulnerable, but it should certainly be possible for a fast mech to dash across an open space for one turn with a realistic chance of making it to the other side, as it stands it's almost impossible.
I am quite interested to see how things play with 1.8 in this regard as inbuilt defense bonuses kind of achieve the same thing.

 

[CatGrenade]

I disagree with Multi being better than Sensor Lock, IMO it's quite the opposite, with Sensor Lock being way ahead multi. You usually want to focus damage on one target at a time, so how useful is to remove evasion (and not much) on three mechs?. On the other side Sensor Lock can be used from outside LoS while you remain safe. You can enable long range mechs and only as a bonus you remove a bit of evasion, and then you Precision Shot for another extra +15% base chance to counteract evasion firing from out of most (or all) of the target's reach. Even if Sensor Lock didn't remove any evasion still would be a decent skill, better than Multi imo.
Now, for the permanent evasion itself I don't necessarily disagree (or agree) with you. Perhaps it would be better, not sure because it would depend a lot on the details of the implementation, but this has been discussed a thousand times and the evasion mechanic hasn't been changed. A new rebalance comes with the next patch, not only stats but also weapons, maybe some AI improvements, so probably is better to wait to see how goes in a few days.

Just plain firing is very often (not always, early game) better at stripping evasion than sensor lock in theoretical unit/turns to kill so of course multitarget is situationally superior to that already niche skill application. Sensor lock isn't necessarily bad, but it's good for reasons other than evasion stripping. Two units multishotting two units for chip and evasion strip followed by two precision shot finishers killing two units per turn is not exactly unreasonable. Gives greater output on those targets overall than 2x sensor lock 2x precision shot and increased probability of 2 kills per turn.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Two Sensor Lock MechWarriors (for me, those two are Arclight and Mockingbird) and two Multi-Target MechWarriors (again, for me those two would be Apex and Wildfire) have been the basis of many a Multiplayer Match for me.

Alone Sensor Lock is effective.

Alone Multi-Target is effective.

Together?

Many quite excellent tactics and schemes of maneuver can be realized with a blend of both skills. And that is a mark of HBS’s excellence in game design. :bow:

 

[HBS_RedMenace]

I'll chime in here with a note about the 1.8 Update: we've removed the previous max-Evasion cap that was in place and increased via Piloting skill. This means that from Mission #1 you can run your Locust for a full 7 Evasion if you sprint.

Additionally, to replace what those Piloting traits did, we've converted them to provide a permanent hit defense / bonus melee defense value to 'Mechs piloted by that MechWarrior.

 

[Doctor Machete]

Just plain firing is very often (not always, early game) better at stripping evasion than sensor lock in theoretical unit/turns to kill so of course multitarget is situationally superior to that already niche skill application. Sensor lock isn't necessarily bad, but it's good for reasons other than evasion stripping. Two units multishotting two units for chip and evasion strip followed by two precision shot finishers killing two units per turn is not exactly unreasonable. Gives greater output on those targets overall than 2x sensor lock 2x precision shot and increased probability of 2 kills per turn.

I agreed before when I said the main purpose of Sensor Lock isn't about eva removal but I think still is superior for that purpose, you're removing two chevrons to a single target in a game that rewards focused firing. Do you really think one less chevron on a third target is going to make a difference? because I can reverse that and say that if so then I'd rather have one target at -2 chevs than two (or three) targets at -1 chev. Of course, with multi you're also firing but you're most likely exposed if you don't finish all two or three targets (highly unlikely against hard targets) and also you're not focusing damage but dealing random damage (no Precision Shot possible, which is a huge deal). Even if Multi was a free skill and I had no Sensor Lock most of the time I wouldn't use it, I'd just attack and focus fire with my first mech instead of spliting my firepower; or alternatively I'll delay my attack.

SL helps you to drop down asap that first target spotting from a safe place instead of grinding several targets at the same time spotting from a position where you need to be able to target two or three of them. You may not be using SL if you only play with brawlers, but if you use long range mechs it really does make a very big difference. You can get a decent percentage of five skull missions cleared without being shot even once using one-two high damage brawlers/spotters and two-three long range mechs (at least two of them LRM boats).

The advantage about Sensor Lock is, as I said before, that you can do it from a safe place to enable long range mechs. And in the lance above the two spotters are very high damage mechs, it may not be required for them to fire the AC20 (perhaps using the lasers for turrets or buildings to conserve LRM ammo). It gives you a lot of flexibility while with Multi you need to commit a lot more into a single course of action. I can Sensor Lock with a brawler and next turn I may Sensor Lock again or jump + alpha; or if I was already in combat I may jump out + Sensor Lock into hard cover for cooling down or just in case I get outnumbered next turn.

Not saying it isn't fun, I sometimes play with four dual AC20 Lancer brawlers, but as I see it Multi is a very very bad skill. IMO it's only semi-decent with big hitters like dual AC20 having a low stats pilot against very soft targets, very good for aggroing three targets at a time in base defense missions (and even then is not necessary) and good (only, I'd say MT is better) for LRM boat damage dealers. Otherwise it's way better to manage LoS with JJs to avoid damage and get local numerical advantages, four vs one if possible, or four vs many who can't fire at me in return for a few turns (behind hills or something. And that's not situational. With the right lance composition you can make it work in almost every scenarios. It's not nearly as situational as with multi, it works against one or many targets. You only need some hard cover, and there is even in Lunar maps. If there is no time limit it will happen, and if not the case it is very probable it will happen anyway. In contrast, for Multi to be useful you need to look for two-three foes at a time, which for seems way more situational, riskier even with optimal scenarios and far riskier with very bad ones. It won't help you much against those four KC in a tight group with a few vehicles around them, for example. Sensor Lock will, a LOT.

 

[gh0s7]

I'll chime in here with a note about the 1.8 Update: we've removed the previous max-Evasion cap that was in place and increased via Piloting skill. This means that from Mission #1 you can run your Locust for a full 7 Evasion if you sprint.

Additionally, to replace what those Piloting traits did, we've converted them to provide a permanent hit defense / bonus melee defense value to 'Mechs piloted by that MechWarrior.

That's very important data, thank you for posting!

All of these plus the news about a COIL weapon exploding like the GR will make me reconsider my favoured type of pilots as well as what type of loadouts if including a COIL...

 

[Prussian Havoc]

When sharing a match with a fellow gamer in BATTLETECH Multiplayer, any opportunity to get inside your opponent's decision cycle is valuable.

Given BATTLETECH’s Turn Order, the Mech that I move first this turn, might wind up being the Mech I move last on the next turn. That leaves the better part of two turns for its Evasion Chevrons to be worn away.

Sure, burning Sensor Locks to imperil a single Mech is effective. I don’t debate that. But the value of wearing away the Chevrons of multiple Mechs can frustrate even the best of Tactics and Schemes if Maneuver, hurrying your opponent and increasing your odds of catching him out of position and vulnerable.

Where multiple Sensor Locks are a concerted effort to hammer down the defenses of a single Mech, over time, Multi-Target can be more of a finesse effort to unhinge an opponent’s game plan. :bow:

 

[Prussian Havoc]

That's very important data, thank you for posting!

All of these plus the news about a COIL weapon exploding like the GR will make me reconsider my favoured type of pilots as well as what type of loadouts if including a COIL...

COILS won’t be CT Weapons of Choice for me! : )

 

[gh0s7]

COILS won’t be CT Weapons of Choice for me! : )

Aye; besides, the size of the Small ones are 4 slots, right? Yeah, so not worth spending all the space on the CT for a one.

 

[Doctor Machete]

Sure, burning Sensor Locks to imperil a single Mech is effective. I don’t debate that. But the value of wearing away the Chevrons of multiple Mechs can frustrate even the best of Tactics and Schemes if Maneuver, hurrying your opponent and increasing your odds of catching him out of position and vulnerable.

In multiplayer maybe, not against the AI.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

In multiplayer maybe, not against the AI.

The AI?

If anything the AI is even more vulnerable to having its reactions and propensities anticipated and generally being deconstructed in a workmanlike manner time after time.


Come to think on it, there has to be some way to help HBS gather information toward improving BATTLETECH’s AI. Better approximation of a competent BATTLETECH Tactician just might be possible.

Though it likely might be something that falls best toward a Difficulty Setting...

...a “Justin Allard” level of AI would be something I would help Kickstart in a heartbeat! : )

 

[Edmon]

Evasion is already extremely powerful in the basegame, to the point that a skilled player can make lights impossible for the A.I. to even damage, let alone destory. That is not just my opinion, but I have an entire recorded series where I take 4 lights into 4+ skull missions and walk away not only undamaged but with the opfor dead in impressively short amounts of (real) time.

I feel like HBS is getting the wrong feedback and advice, especially from the very small multiplayer community who have views that don't reflect the realities of the basegame. I.E. that you can customise and maximize the talents of your pilots, that you can fit +defense gyros, you have lostech, etc.

Modders improving evasion is an issue of not understanding the power of evasion when you stack it, how to move and take turns in such a way to mitigate sensor locks and that you can sprint 3 mechs and fire with only 1 and that can still be a great turn. They are under the impression you need to fire all the time and thus leave mechs exposed and vunerable, which is fine when they have tons of armour but is not how lights are defensively managed.

Changes to improve evasion, will led to gameplay with no challenge once you have that "Lights on" (pardon the pun) moment and fully understand their playstyle. However, very few make that effort, falling very quickly into the "bigger is better" trap without actually exploring making lights work.

Lights and evasion being bad is the biggest misconception in HBS battletech. Once you hit the correct build, have the right pilots and understand the movement logic to keep your tokens at 5 or more, you are basically an unstoppable god. If the A.I. even lands a single shot, it is bad luck.

 

[Timaeus]

I feel like HBS is getting the wrong feedback and advice, especially from the very small multiplayer community who have views that don't reflect the realities of the basegame. I.E. that you can customise and maximize the talents of your pilots, that you can fit +defense gyros, you have lostech, etc.

I fully admit I might be wrong here, but I'm...not sure the MP community is arguing for evasion to be permanent?

 

[Blade_mercurial]

Evasion is already extremely powerful in the basegame, to the point that a skilled player can make lights impossible for the A.I. to even damage, let alone destory. That is not just my opinion, but I have an entire recorded series where I take 4 lights into 4+ skull missions and walk away not only undamaged but with the opfor dead in impressively short amounts of (real) time.

Having done an all Lights Playthrough myself, I agree with you for the most part. However, there are a few caveats. First of all, its not quite as easy as you make it out to be. Even you had some losses and had a rough time in the early part of the campaign before you acquired 10/10/10/10 pilots and enough Defensive Gyros to cover your entire lance.

Secondly, you can actually make it harder for lights by tweaking the AI to be even more likely to run up and punch, or by allowing it to reserve (I know you will disagree with me on this, but I played my all Lights campaign with reserving AI and after seeing your youtube playthrough, I can see mine was definitely more challenging at times because there were so many times where I couldn't just rush aggressively forward and shoot my first target in the back since at least 3 enemy mechs in close proximity still had not activated due to AI preference to activate units farther away first).

Despite all that, I do agree that Lights are totally viable and that the currrent Evasion mechanic is not as bad as some make it out to be. Having said that, I am very excited to see what changes we have in store with the 1.8 release. Adding mod support, some tweaks to the Mechwarrior Skills hinted at upthread, and especially the new mechs are all exciting news and should really add some interesting new depth to the game!