More Negative Species Traits

[corsairmarks]

Each expansion brings a few new interesting, positive species traits. However, there are many more positive traits than negative traits - and it is a little boring to have the same small few negative traits built-in to the game.

I would like to see more negative traits that cause interesting side effects. I want to differentiate my custom species based on their weaknesses as well as their strengths.

A few "opposite" traits are potentially low-hanging fruit: opposite of Thrifty, opposite of research bonus traits, opposite of resource production traits. However, even these aren't very interesting - they just add more options.

Instead, perhaps traits that add additional upkeep (% or a different resource), or causes Pops of the species to less likely to migrate, or perhaps happiness penalties based on the amount of Pops of other species present.

 

[Pancakelord]

I have experimented using macros to create inverse traits before with mixed results (as in, i made every combination - skipped adding unique icons or text and used their filenames to test) - and it was .... really underwhelming. Just echoing what others have said in that you end up with a ton of pointless downsides.

Traits need to be specific in their bonuses to promote strategy, but not too specific as we cant govern pops too tightly (for ui and micro reasons) - whilst negatives should always have "some" impact, but under certain conditions (such as when their positives are active too - if a mixed trait) they can be more pronounced). I think what makes a good trait for me is putting them in to categories like these 4:

1. leader effects (i.e. leaders made from that species)
   • custom leader traits, leaders spawning at higher XP levels, leaders not costing unity
   • e.g. a hive-only "larval gestation" species trait could have leaders cost 25% unity 75% food[minerals if lithoid], so you can spam out leaders without hitting your unity budget.
     • A machine version could have them cost energy and level up faster but be more accident prone (Overcharged robotics or something)
     • And a corporate version could have leaders cost consumer goods, for example (youre literally bribing them with a mountain of wealth to come work for you).
2. resource effects
   • Positives and negatives tied to output of resources generally (not by specific jobs). so rather than being a "skilled clerk" trait [bonus when working as a clerk], you are "trade savvy" [just bonus output full stop] and that pop puts out more TV in any trade value yielding job - such as a merchant (this might be a bad example specifically due to how TV modifiers work, but it illustrates the point).
3. strata effects
   1. Positives and negatives if working in X strata [particularly strong for gestalts with only 2 strata and no demotion time lol]
   2. Might be a good way to influence political power.
      1. "Born To Serve" - an engineered trait, makes these pops particularly happy in the servant and slave strata, but if outside of this, they struggle with individual agency, prone to outbursts, leading to reduced happiness and increased political power - but they cant shake off their genecoded work ethic - and keep receiving slave bonuses (or a mirror of them, for technical reasons) even as free pops. So they work hard but are a pain to work with if given freedom.
4. planet effects
   1. Positives and negatives from planetary stats - crime, carry capacity, housing, amenities use and so on, or with certain planetary properties. Like:
      1. Orbital Denizen - this pop is happier (and has reduced amenities usage) when on a planet with an operational orbital ring).
      2. There is also the potential to do swaps like, "Singing flora" this plantoid pop consumes more food (or energy if photosynthetic), but in return they consume no amenites, and actually produce 1.

You'll notice the absence of job-specific traits - "natural born priest" or whatever - I don't really think they work well with how the game is set up, you either end up hyper focussing pops and planets to use certain jobs, which encourages micro, or it feels like a wasted/false choice.

If a trait plays in just one category it gets +/-1 point. if it touches 2 or more it could get +/-2 points, adding or removing another point if mixing positives and negatives, and one more +/- based on the overall magnitude of modifiers involved, as a rough if imperfect balance regime.

 

[kwanzaabot]

• Precise Hydration (conflicts with Nonadaptive): this species has a very delicate physiology that requires very precise levels of liquid.
  Lower habitability on Dry worlds (not enough water), lower habitability on Wet worlds (not enough land), lower habitability on Frozen worlds (not enough liquid water).
  
  No baseline habitability can go above 60% (eg. an Arid species colonizing another Arid world), or 20% (eg. an Arid species colonizing a Desert)
  Continental, Alpine, and Savanna worlds are the exceptions to this rule, providing no additional penalty (as they have ample liquid water and land). Trades having less habitability than Nonadaptive for the ability for a smaller selection of worlds to be viable choices. Maybe -2 points?
  
  This could be used for amphibious species like frogs, or sea turtles that live their whole lives in the water but must return to land to breed. Would also work for Plantoids and Fungoids, and even some crystalline Lithoids.
  
  
• Unemotional (conflicts with Noxious, probably some others): this species has learned to suppress its emotions in order to pursue some higher purpose.
  
  Unaffected by happiness, but cannot generate happiness, either. I'd say -1 point for this?
  
  i.e. the Vulcan trait. Would have no real drawback at first, but once you start letting other species into your empire you'll need to find some way to keep those colonists happy.
  
  
• Superior Ambition (Overtuned trait): this species believes that their destiny is to expand their dominion among the stars.
  
  Leaders produced by this species invariably have the Mandate to build colonies, conquer X amount of owned systems, win wars, and otherwise expand.
  
  i.e. the Star Trek Augments trait--"superior ability breeds superior ambition". Genetically-engineered individuals who think that might makes right. I'd argue that this would have a -1 cost, as it's really more of an inconvenience than an outright handicap.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Unemotional (conflicts with Noxious, probably some others): this species has learned to suppress its emotions in order to pursue some higher purpose.

Unaffected by happiness, but cannot generate happiness, either.

As currently implemented, such a species would require 0 amenities. That makes this very much not a negative trait.

 

[kwanzaabot]

As currently implemented, such a species would require 0 amenities. That makes this very much not a negative trait.

Hmm good point. Feel free to add a suggestion to get the fantasy across!

 

[nightraven1901]

Hard agree. Agrarian, Ingenious, and Industrious are easy to have negative variants of, as are just about all the positive traits. Easy to do, re-colouring the extant icons will be easy enough, and it's very much required.

 

[GhostDanny]

Hard agree. Agrarian, Ingenious, and Industrious are easy to have negative variants of, as are just about all the positive traits. Easy to do, re-colouring the extant icons will be easy enough, and it's very much required.

The problem with that is that, negatives for those would just be free points.

 

[nightraven1901]

The problem with that is that, negatives for those would just be free points.

I would be inclined to disagree, but maybe I'm missing something... might I ask, how so?

 

[GhostDanny]

I would be inclined to disagree, but maybe I'm missing something... might I ask, how so?

If you're for example focus on trade value, then the negative for energy production is free points.
As all your energy can come from tradevalue instead.

 

[nightraven1901]

If you're for example focus on trade value, then the negative for energy production is free points.
As all your energy can come from tradevalue instead.

Can you completely remove all technician jobs efficiently though? I assume the answer is yes for you to say so- but if so, there'll doubtless still be several points where you'll be missing out. If you come across the C.A.R.E world with that negative it's going to be a real waste, as it's still going to good at creating energy through technicians and using it for trade is downgrading it to normal. Maybe have them only be worth 1 point instead of 2? But I really want more 2 point and preferably even 3 and 4 point negatives if at all possible. Any suggestions? Leader lifespan comes to mind, because having -40 years leader lifespan will *tank* your unity gain and leader levels, and should be worth the 4 points its positive version is worth... What else? Hardened versions of the extant ones, like -40% amenities and +20% empire size from pops? I'd like other options, and I do use basic resource gatherers, normally eschewing trade. I'd suggest a negative trade value trait but I literally wouldn't care most of the time; there's no repeatable for trade value, it doesn't scale, technicians do.

Seriously, what is there that can't be avoided?

 

[HFY]

Seriously, what is there that can't be avoided?

Imagine there was a planet with no worker jobs (e.g. an Ecumenopolis).

Further, imagine this planet had unusually high population (like an Ecumenopolis).

Now imagine that gene modding worked on a per-planet basis (which it does).

Can you see how a sub-species could avoid facing any consequence?

 

[GhostDanny]

Can you completely remove all technician jobs efficiently though? I assume the answer is yes for you to say so- but if so, there'll doubtless still be several points where you'll be missing out. If you come across the C.A.R.E world with that negative it's going to be a real waste, as it's still going to good at creating energy through technicians and using it for trade is downgrading it to normal. Maybe have them only be worth 1 point instead of 2? But I really want more 2 point and preferably even 3 and 4 point negatives if at all possible. Any suggestions? Leader lifespan comes to mind, because having -40 years leader lifespan will *tank* your unity gain and leader levels, and should be worth the 4 points its positive version is worth... What else? Hardened versions of the extant ones, like -40% amenities and +20% empire size from pops? I'd like other options, and I do use basic resource gatherers, normally eschewing trade. I'd suggest a negative trade value trait but I literally wouldn't care most of the time; there's no repeatable for trade value, it doesn't scale, technicians do.

Seriously, what is there that can't be avoided?

Catalytic Processing + Trade build, can effectively avoid any and all technicians and miners.
All energy comes from trade value, all needed minerals come from space, most if not all consumer goods from trade value and alloys require food not minerals.
Which renders any negative versions of Ingenious and Industrious free points.

CARE could just get restored into ecumenopolis, besides it's rare you'll get that every game.

 

[nightraven1901]

Imagine there was a planet with no worker jobs (e.g. an Ecumenopolis).

Further, imagine this planet had unusually high population (like an Ecumenopolis).

Now imagine that gene modding worked on a per-planet basis (which it does).

Can you see how a sub-species could avoid facing any consequence?

Yeah, but every time I've tried that it becomes a hot mess real quick. Especially on large maps. I suppose a perfect-play quasigod could do it, and that planet in particular would be fine for traits affection the three worker types I mentioned (it still has clerk jobs in good number, btw, though no smart person ever lets them work as such on the dang things), but there' also ways around this. Easy fix: Make the negative trait for energy and trade the same trait, and strong, like -25%. Dodge that. Negative alloy and consumer goods production traits. Negative research doesn't seem like it's too easy to break (and yes, I've seen the no-research challenge vids... they were labelled as such for a reason). There are workable possibilities. I swear it can be done.

Surely you have some good ideas yourself? You're bright enough for the job, what's a negative trait, you cannot break?

 

[HFY]

(it still has clerk jobs in good number, btw, though no smart person ever lets them work as such on the dang things)

Eh, my favorite designation is Ecumenopolis (plain) which includes a +% TV, so if I'm ascending my Ecus it's actually not bad to run a few Clerks on them.

Surely you have some good ideas yourself? You're bright enough for the job, what's a negative trait, you cannot break?

It's not about breaking the game, because 2 free points from -% worker job which I don't work is frankly trivial.

It's about the trait mini-game being too simple and dull already.

For example, the last thing we needed was a +10% alloys trait. It's a box which someone saw and could easily check, so it was very easy to add, but it does not make the game better. It makes the game worse. Now you have to genemod your pops to use that trait on your foundry Ecus or you're choosing to lose Alloys.

Choices are good, chores are bad. The new traits feel more like chores.

I've posted ideas in this thread already about how to make better traits -- interact with all (or at least most) strata and also have some Leader impact.

 

[GhostDanny]

Surely you have some good ideas yourself? You're bright enough for the job, what's a negative trait, you cannot break?

I have 3 negative traits posted in the beginning of this thread.
You'll find those hard to break.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Yeah, but every time I've tried that it becomes a hot mess real quick. Especially on large maps. I suppose a perfect-play quasigod could do it, and that planet in particular would be fine for traits affection the three worker types I mentioned (it still has clerk jobs in good number, btw, though no smart person ever lets them work as such on the dang things), but there' also ways around this. Easy fix: Make the negative trait for energy and trade the same trait, and strong, like -25%. Dodge that. Negative alloy and consumer goods production traits. Negative research doesn't seem like it's too easy to break (and yes, I've seen the no-research challenge vids... they were labelled as such for a reason). There are workable possibilities. I swear it can be done.

Surely you have some good ideas yourself? You're bright enough for the job, what's a negative trait, you cannot break?

The current negative traits are either fairly universal (growth, amenities, sprawl) or only -1 (housing, resettlement, CG upkeep, worker happiness). -1 points for a full effectiveness negative trait would be fine: Sedentary and Solitary are already basically free on all-specialist worlds (especially ecumenopoleis), so it would change nothing.

But having them be -2 would be too powerful.

 

[nightraven1901]

I have 3 negative traits posted in the beginning of this thread.
You'll find those hard to break.

Sure. I think the second is are a shade harsh, and the third is absurdly harsh (100% should be enough for 3 points) but there has to be more than just this. Though I'll happily take all three of those, plus my 1 point for -25% EC and TV trait unless someone has a way to break that, which gives us four. I'd take one with reduction to growth in several levels, that's pretty universal We have a trait, two harsher version would be appreciated. One for reduction to leader output could work, they tend to be the highest-output members of you empire anyway and it's completely universal. We're up to eight in my post.

Only a couple of those (like the harsher and harshest growth rate reductions) and depending on sttrength of reduction, output of leader-stratum jobs output could possibly be -2 or more. We must keep at it...

What hardass negative traits can we drop? I did suggest a worse sprawl trait for -2, even a shockingly bad one (-30%) for -3 points. I'll take a monster variant empire size from pops trait for -50% and -5 points, my sprawl sucks all the time every time and I'll deal. What else can we muster?

 

[corsairmarks]

As currently implemented, such a species would require 0 amenities. That makes this very much not a negative trait.

Amenities are still needed regardless of happiness. And negative amenities still negatively impact stability.

 

[EulersApprentice]

Easy fix: Make the negative trait for energy and trade the same trait, and strong, like -25%. Dodge that.

Put it on some of your pops but not all. Use the pops without the negative trait to generate your energy, and the pops with the negative trait for everything else. Boom, free trait points.

 

[Abdulijubjub]

Amenities are still needed regardless of happiness. And negative amenities still negatively impact stability.

Gestalts have a completely different amenities system, and in fact completely different amenities, under the hood (amenities_no_happiness, IIRC). The same does not apply to non-gestalts.

A biological empire with all pops that are not affected by happiness can completely ignore amenities without any effect on stability. Try it yourself: fill a planet with Zombies/Nerve Stapled pops/Servitude robot pops. Remove any that aren't, and close all amenity jobs. You will have 50% approval rating and average stability. Then move them all back into amenity jobs. You will still have 50% approval rating and exactly the same stability.

You could try to use the gestalt system, but that's far outside species trait scripting territory, and would have to be an empire modifier (so probably an origin or civic). And things get messy if you allow xenos onto your planets. Are they affected by happiness? Can you double dip and raise stability with high amenities and also approval rating? Does it do some sort of hybrid thing where the effect is based on % of population?

It just doesn't map cleanly to the current game systems.

 

[HFY]

Gestalts have a completely different amenities system, and in fact completely different amenities, under the hood (amenities_no_happiness, IIRC). The same does not apply to non-gestalts.

Do the Rogue Servitors use both somehow?