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Flamestar

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This is a suggestion thread for melting pot cultures not in Ck2, i will mark the Noble culture red (ex. Normans) and the Peasant Culture blue (ex anglosaxons). Feel free to add your own submissions and reasoning's.

Parsi: Persian (Maybe Afgani too)- [Any Indo-Aryan culture] This mixing pot culture could also be an event driven formation stemming from the fall of Zoroastrian Persia.
Anglo-Norse:
Norse (or any North Germanic culture) - Anglo-Saxon
 
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Given their mechanics and how they were able to go anywhere in CK2, it might be fun for Norse to have a melting pot culture for every culture group, or at least one for every culture group that traditionally has coasts. Founding Norse kingdoms in far off lands was already fun, but getting a unique culture out of it would be awesome.
 
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I think hard-coding melting pots is a step backwards when the Religion/Faith system is so dynamic. I think it'd be neat if any culture combination in the game had a chance to form a melting pot if a county is held for 50 - 100 years by a ruler of a foreign culture. The new culture could be automatically generated from combining the name lists and clothing options from the parent cultures, with the cultural group coming from the county's original culture to make assimilating neighbouring lands easier.

Historical melting pots like English and Norman should still be hard-coded, but the above would allow for a lot of possibilities like the Timurids forming a Persian-Turkish culture or the Vikings forming a Finno-Swedish culture.
 
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chelvo

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Well, I certainly would enjoy seeing dynamic melting pots the most, would spice up both crusading, viking and other gameplay that involves Migrating.
 
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Chlodio

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I think it'd be neat if any culture combination in the game had a chance to form a melting pot if a county is held for 50 - 100 years by a ruler of a foreign culture.
I reckon there are two types of melting pots; your description is an amalgamation of them.

First, you have "acculturation", where submissive culture adapts parts of the ruling culture, hence becoming its sub-culture, i.e Hispano-Romans. For the majority to become acculturated by the ruling minority would take many centuries.

Then you have "creolization", where descendants of immigrants embrace parts the local culture in addition to their ancestral culture, creating a new one, i.e the Normans. Which is far quicker perhaps 2–4 decades.

English culture seems to be unique as a melting pot. Far as I have understood it: the Norman conquest resulted in a bunch of French immigrating to England and their offspring became creolized as Anglo-Normans. Therefore, you have Anglo-Saxon peasants ruled by Anglo-Norman gentry, governed over by French nobles. After a century of Norman conquest, the local Anglo-Saxon culture becomes acculturated by the Anglo-Normans, the English. And during the 14th century, you have Edward III who makes a bunch of laws that acculturate the nobility and gentry to lowborn English, which in time unifies into one English culture.

A gentry culture alongside the peasant culture would be nice...

The new culture could be automatically generated from combining the name lists
That would be Aerith and Bob, please no. The sensible practice would localize the names from one culture to another, like Gaelicizing Ivar as Imar. But the problem with that is...there aren't any rules in localizing names (e.g from Jacob to James), therefore dynamic names would be difficult.
 
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treb

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The problem with dynamic melding pots is that languages are very complicated and mix in very dynamic ways that are hard to simulate, there is a reason that google translate despite all of googles smart AI tech and billions in r&d is still a joke compared to some guy who happens to be fluent in both languages.
As an example look at the origin of the place name York

Eburākon>Eboracum>Eoforwīc>Jórvík>York

That is between 5 relatively closely related languages one of which is the direct ancestor of a another, all from the same family. Try a place name mix that goes Indo-European>Basque>Dravidian>Finno-Urgic>Semetic because I can guarantee you taking a few hours to learn the phonetic alphabet and hand translating them yourself will look 1000% better then what any contemporary computer let alone CK3 will achieve
 
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CrabHelmet

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Yeah, dynamic cultures are really just foiled by the name and language problem. Say you have Norse raiders making their way as far as Iran and conquering parts of Iran. You want to have a Norse-Farsi culture group. How do you make the names from the rulers?

Option 1 is you just fuse the name groups. This would be terrible and immersion breaking. You're not going to have a guy called Hrøríkʀ after 250 years of this, the whole way that name is spoken is going to change in response to where he has ended up (in the same way that Hrøríkʀ became Rjurikŭ in Old Slavonic or who we might call Rurik today). It'll also be odd having Hrøríkʀs and Ōhrmazds living side by side with no movement for whose names to become more similar or share ways of being written.

Option 2, which is not really an option, is to hand-wave it and dynamically adjust the spelling of name lists to match the various linguistic characteristics of each two languages. Good luck getting Paradox to do what a team of specialist linguists can't manage.

Option 3 is to hand-craft specific culture mixes. This is possible, but... incredibly time- and resource-intensive. It's bad enough fleshing out real cultures that actually exist when historical records are scant. Ever tried creating a name list for the Old Prussians that isn't heavy guesses and modified Lithuanian stuff? You're simply not going to be able to do this for every possible combination of two cultures on the map. If you have 10 base cultures, that's 100 culture name-lists you need Paradox to create.

Potentially you could do a restricted Option 3, and just pick a few extremely plausible culture mixes that almost happened but for a quirk of history, or only needed a small quirk of history to happen. But even then, that's a low priority after making sure that all the stuff that actually did happen is represented.
 
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Dynamic melting pots would be the ideal but I don't know how difficult that would be to code. Hopefully maybe in a future expansion/dlc? Assuming that it is possible do it with the base system they are building.
 

Zhetone

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more realistically we should see rulers assimilating more often than we see society adopting a new culture at large, which didn't happen often in ck2, leading to things that made no sense. I don't want to see "melting pots" all over the place when they weren't really that common in real life.
 
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DreadLindwyrm

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Naming your dynamic melting pots has potential problems.

Firstly you need to have the ability to give all of the cultures a "prefix and suffix" versions (So English is Anglo- and -English, French is Franco- and -French etc).
Not too bad as things go, but it'll need some work in some cases; I don't think there's a clear "Norse" prefix, as I'm used to seeing Norse always as the suffix for a blended culture.

Then we have to consider what happens when two blended cultures interact, and we have to create a blend of a blend.

For example, Anglo-Norse merges with Austro-Lombard. Do we pick two roots at random in order to keep the name length under control, or do we have Anglo-Austro-Lombardo-Norse or some other excessively long combination?

Naming the characters would be horrific, even with some closely related groupings.


more realistically we should see rulers assimilating more often than we see society adopting a new culture at large, which didn't happen often in ck2, leading to things that made no sense. I don't want to see "melting pots" all over the place when they weren't really that common in real life.
The issue is that some melting pots do make sense. Without a way for Norman to come into existence sensibly, there's no way to model the formation of English.
Without some form of melting pot event, the formation of a separate Russian identity becomes difficult to handle.

In an alternate timeline where Cnut's descendents managed to hold onto England, an "Anglo-Norse" merged culture is perfectly reasonable to become that timeline's version of English.
If the Norse raids and settlement of Ireland had been more sustained, a more lasting Hiberno-Norse culture than the historic one would probably have arisen, rather than becoming part of (modern) Irish and Scottish identity - and indeed during the 12-14th century appear to have been recognised as a separate culture in law, before essentially falling to the Anglo-Normans.

Many of the modern cultures are at least partially mergers of more than one old culture, even if it's not as spectacular and visible as the English transition - French being a melting pot of several cultures in the north of France each derived from Frankish + previous local culture. In some ways the cultures aren't detailed enough to show this in CK, possibly due to wanting to limit the number of layers of culture in the game.

Rulers *partially* assimilating is where the melting pots come in. The rulers and the ruled gradually reaching a culture which both are comfortable with - or at least comfortable *enough* - where laws and customs are drawn from both antecessors.
 
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Zhetone

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you're right that some make sense, but if you let it run wild we end up with an absurd world. look at how many kings in the period of CK2 were from another part of the world from their kingdom - there are tons of them, yet in the vast majority of cases, this never resulted in a merger of cultures. It's incredibly easy to forget the kings were even foreigners.

the only melting pot they need to add, in my opinion, is Sicilian in order to prevent Norman southern italy from happening all the time again. Otherwise, I really don't care about adding anymore. A dynamic system would also just result in nonsense, I don't trust it to be implemented in any realistic way, and I don't want to see Arabo-Frankish and Germano-Bohemian or Anglo-Swiss in my games
 
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wilcoxchar

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I'd like to see the main European cultures divided into smaller regional cultures, i.e. instead of Italian have Tuscan, Venetian, Neapolitan, Calabrese, etc. and have a melting pot start to happen dynamically late game if one culture because the "dominant" in this case Italian culture however that's determined. It would better reflect the medieval perception of culture and nationality and the early emergence of nationhood starting in the 14th century.
 
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Lowcast

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Option 1 is you just fuse the name groups. This would be terrible and immersion breaking. You're not going to have a guy called Hrøríkʀ after 250 years of this, the whole way that name is spoken is going to change in response to where he has ended up (in the same way that Hrøríkʀ became Rjurikŭ in Old Slavonic or who we might call Rurik today). It'll also be odd having Hrøríkʀs and Ōhrmazds living side by side with no movement for whose names to become more similar or share ways of being written.

My retort to that would be that in silly edge cases like Norse-Farsis, the player is already running a strange campaign by invading Persia as the Norse in the first place. Weird culture fusions are unlikely to occur unless the player consciously chooses to make them happen, just like pagan reformation, Hellenistic revivals and all the other crazy options the game gives you.

The name localization is definitely a problem though, I agree with you.
 
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Tschobo

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My retort to that would be that in silly edge cases like Norse-Farsis, the player is already running a strange campaign by invading Persia as the Norse in the first place. Weird culture fusions are unlikely to occur unless the player consciously chooses to make them happen, just like pagan reformation, Hellenistic revivals and all the other crazy options the game gives you.

The name localization is definitely a problem though, I agree with you.

I opened a similar thread a few weeks ago, because I would love such a feature. I would propose simple solutions for melting pot cultures for the localization. The clothing should come from the conquered people, no Norseman will run around in heavy pelts in Arabia (I had a finnish crusader duchess once who wore the heavy pelt hat in Egypt with the portrait pack) while the names should come from the conquerors who took over the lands (if you want the other names, just convert to the foreign culture and for the nobles these were often the heroes in the past.). The DNA-string for courtiers would be a mesh of the two original ones.

Also melting pots should be not that common. The AI should be allowed to form historical and some alt-historical ones and the player would have the choice to form crazy ones. (Like a Berber-Norse culture or Finno-Greeks).
 
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Skales

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I would really like if there was some sort of a middle point between just the county culture and the ruler culture. Like, those melting pots don't happen if it is just the king who is a foreigners, many kings of various places were foreigners and they just adopted into the local culture, which is what should happen, if a small elite of Norse warriors conquers land in Persia, they should become basically Persians.

Now, if there is sustained immigration, and there is a larger ruling elite, larger than just the king and a few nobles, then a melting pot could happen. Someone suggested each county having a 'gentry' class, which might help, I would also like if you would generate courtiers from this class, so that if a Frenchman inherits Hungary, he does not just replace all of the nobility with Frenchmen, he will have to rely on local elites.
 

Atimo3

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There is the “work smarter not harder” option, rather than unique pairings for cultures we could instead focus on culture groups. The resulting melting culture would be considered somewhat foreigner but not too much by both of the parent culture groups, while dynamically belonging to only the dominant one.

So, how many would be needed? CK2 has 24 culture groups not counting Aztecs or animals. So that's 276 unique melting cultures. They will probably add a couple culture groups with the new African regions but that's balanced by using the same name list twice for things like: Iberian+Latin, All Slavs, and All Germanic.

Now, is it possible to make 276 hand crafted cultures? Yes… probably. Right now CK2 has 130 cultures. So this would require to triple their lists.

So is there an easier option? Yes: Fuck the small culture groups.

How many culture groups are likely to paint the map? Not that many: Altaic, All Slavic, All Latin, All Germanic, Arabic, Iranian, All Indian, Tibetan, like 3 African culture groups and Byzantine.

At the lowest we could cut it down to 66 combinations. But wait: Do we really need a Tibetan + East African melting pot? No. This list could probably be shortened by only using combinations between groups that border each other. So that probably cuts the number by half-ish. 33 or so hand crafted melting pot cultures that get assigned parent culture and culture group dynamically.

This seems within the realm of possibilities.
 
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DreadLindwyrm

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There is the “work smarter not harder” option, rather than unique pairings for cultures we could instead focus on culture groups. The resulting melting culture would be considered somewhat foreigner but not too much by both of the parent culture groups, while dynamically belonging to only the dominant one.

So, how many would be needed? CK2 has 24 culture groups not counting Aztecs or animals. So that's 276 unique melting cultures. They will probably add a couple culture groups with the new African regions but that's balanced by using the same name list twice for things like: Iberian+Latin, All Slavs, and All Germanic.

Now, is it possible to make 276 hand crafted cultures? Yes… probably. Right now CK2 has 130 cultures. So this would require to triple their lists.

So is there an easier option? Yes: Fuck the small culture groups.

How many culture groups are likely to paint the map? Not that many: Altaic, All Slavic, All Latin, All Germanic, Arabic, Iranian, All Indian, Tibetan, like 3 African culture groups and Byzantine.

At the lowest we could cut it down to 66 combinations. But wait: Do we really need a Tibetan + East African melting pot? No. This list could probably be shortened by only using combinations between groups that border each other. So that probably cuts the number by half-ish. 33 or so hand crafted melting pot cultures that get assigned parent culture and culture group dynamically.

This seems within the realm of possibilities.
And then people complain that you've marginilised or ignored the small cultures, or that you've either removed certain cultures from the name lists (especially where there are duplicates (Stephen/Sven/Stephan/Stefen; John/Jon/Johan/Jan/Hans/Jens) or that you've duplicated what is actually the same name, causing (for example) John IV to be followed by Hans I, or that their character is inappropriately named because their English king is now called Hans rather than John.
"All Germanic" cultures does not make sense to reuse the same name list.

English, Anglo Saxon, Saxon, Frisian, Dutch, German, Lombard, Suebi, Frankish, Norse, Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian all using the same names doesn't work.

Neither does all Latin (French, Norman, Italian, Occitan, Roman,, Sardinian, Outremer and Dalmatian), especially when merged with the Iberian cultures (Basque, Castillian, Catalan, Portugese, and Visigothic).

I'm *reasonably* sure that it doesn't work for all Slavic cultures, since there are three distinct groups, and even within these names vary significantly.

Using "culture group" rather than culture would also risk "English" forming in the borders between France and Germany, and in Northern Italy as it would now be "any Latin" and "any German".

It's plausible that any culture with access to Crusade type mechanics could end up conquering almost anywhere - and since religions can be reformed or rebuilt with a crusading feature, that's *any* culture. The East Africans *could* become reasonably dominant in their area, get lucky with a crusade equivalent and take the mediterranean, and end up meeting a Tibetan "crusade" coming the other way. It's unlikely, but we're dealing with alternate history here.
 
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Atimo3

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Probably pointless to have this argument again, but I may as well post this.

You don't need to make a new name list for any of pre existing culture. That work was already done in CK2, so just reuse the old one. This new metod would be used exclusively for things that would otherwise get no melting pot cultures. It’s obviously pointless to substitute a culture for which the work is already done with a generic one.

When I say all Latin I very much mean all, which includes Iberian. A hypothetical melting pot Latin + Iberian may just recycle the Catalan namelist with some Occitan put into the mix. But when interacting with other cultures like (for example) Arabic or Slavic, the entire things gets threated as one source of names.

The trick is that you have two pools of names to pick from, so you can adapt either and end with something workable. Also you wouldn't just end with the same melting pot culture for each group, what we are recycling it's not the culture but the name list.

Let's use an example: Arabic + Slavic

We can form names for it by Arabizing Slavic names with some clever use of transliteration (Vladimir -> Fladimir) or by making Arab names sound more Slav (Ibrahim -> Ibragim). Bosnian is actually a great frame of reference as there is plenty of names of Arab origin. Do this process enough times and you end with a full Arab-Slav list of names.

But once you end with this list you don’t just make one culture, you make 3, each using the same name list. So for instance you could call them:

Arab + East Slav= Arabski

Arab + West Slav = Arabščina

Arab + South Slav = Alsulafia

After that you simply ignore any edge case. Could the East Africans met the Tibetans? Yes. Do we care about what happen in that edge case? No, because like 8 players are going to see it.
 
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MinotaurWarrior

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If they went this way, you could probably handle all the edge cases by figuring out a simple Vowell / consonant shift list.

E.g. "If Tibet conquers Iberia, the sino-Tibetan culture in Iberia takes the Tibetan name list and replaces all the ch's with g's"

Is Gogden a gibberish made up name? Yes. Are some of these names going to be worse, and distractingly ugly for some people? Yes. Is it going to be worse than the border gore that got us here? Probably not.
 
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DreadLindwyrm

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Probably pointless to have this argument again, but I may as well post this.

You don't need to make a new name list for any of pre existing culture. That work was already done in CK2, so just reuse the old one. This new metod would be used exclusively for things that would otherwise get no melting pot cultures. It’s obviously pointless to substitute a culture for which the work is already done with a generic one.

When I say all Latin I very much mean all, which includes Iberian. A hypothetical melting pot Latin + Iberian may just recycle the Catalan namelist with some Occitan put into the mix. But when interacting with other cultures like (for example) Arabic or Slavic, the entire things gets threated as one source of names.

The trick is that you have two pools of names to pick from, so you can adapt either and end with something workable. Also you wouldn't just end with the same melting pot culture for each group, what we are recycling it's not the culture but the name list.

Let's use an example: Arabic + Slavic

We can form names for it by Arabizing Slavic names with some clever use of transliteration (Vladimir -> Fladimir) or by making Arab names sound more Slav (Ibrahim -> Ibragim). Bosnian is actually a great frame of reference as there is plenty of names of Arab origin. Do this process enough times and you end with a full Arab-Slav list of names.

But once you end with this list you don’t just make one culture, you make 3, each using the same name list. So for instance you could call them:

Arab + East Slav= Arabski

Arab + West Slav = Arabščina

Arab + South Slav = Alsulafia

After that you simply ignore any edge case. Could the East Africans met the Tibetans? Yes. Do we care about what happen in that edge case? No, because like 8 players are going to see it.
So the existing melting pots would be special exceptions to the "generic" melting pot code? OK, provided the exceptions work properly, and it doesn't become too complicated or start throwing problems.

Latin and Iberian are treated as different culture groups in CKII for several reasons, one of which appears to be to prevent one massive culture group from taking up most of western Europe.
But considering some of the cultures in there, they make no sense to be reduced down to a single namelist. If one of the parent cultures is Basque, it's going to contribute very different names to if the parent is Roman. A Basque/Dalmatian merger isn't going to look or sound like a Catalan/Occitan one, and the names from the Catalan list are largely inappropriate for that mix.

The three different Slavic groups are going to contribute different base names to the Arab/Slav mixed list, and again you risk inappropriate names being used for the namelist of the merger that are not derived from either culture that has been used for the merger, or that are clearly derivative of other, uninvolved cultures.

It's an interesting idea, but you're flattening it too far. Even within a culture group namelists can be very distinct, with names either changing to entirely different forms or being non-existent on one list, but very common in the other culture. Flattening multiple culture groups together strikes me as a bad way to handle it, especially considering the wide range of locations that a given culture group can cover before you consider that you're merging 3 culture groups together for creating the name lists. There's also the problem that you're effectively ignoring the differences between those cultures when doing this.

And then there's the issue that (say) a French/Lombard mixed culture might arise, and is then using the same culture/name list as a Norse/Roman culture. In these cases the ruling class and "peasant" classes are reversed in which culture groups they come from, but you're getting the same name list anyway. It just doesn't feel right; it feels too over simplified, and it feels like you'll end up with way too many names that are in forms foreign to both founding cultures.


And then there are the, as you say, "edge" cases. Where do you draw the line at what is an edge case? Remember that since any religion can pick up crusade-like traits, essentially any culture that is successful could end up "crusading" for land anywhere on the map, so what were unlikely "edge cases" before become more likely to happen. Your example with the East Africans and the Tibetans could, for example come about with both trying to "crusade" western India. They're more likely to come into contact in some ways than North Germanic/Arabic. The East Africans can get access by going around the Arabic peninsular.

A strong player of *any* culture can in theory take land of any other culture (although I'll admit some are less likely to happen than others), but I have, as a relatively poor player, ended up as an Irish ruler with a border to India thanks to a couple of crusades for the Holy Land and some NPC Holy Wars through modern Iran that I then inherited the profits of. It didn't last, because tanistry is awkward over those distances, but that's setting up Celtic/Indo-Aryan melting pots as a potential thing.

Not doing these "edge" cases also makes the "universal" melting pot idea seem very unfinished, and as if the cultures you don't give melting pots to don't matter, and are somehow not worth considering at all. I realise that's not your intent, but it has the potential to look bad.



In addition to this, a culture is more than just the name list. You need to decide on relevant special cultural troops, any special rules the culture might have (can they raid, can they access special successsions (tanistry, tibetan monasticism), do they get access to any special decisions (bear/stag/tiger hunting), do they have any special rules about being blocked from succession (castration/blinding etc.) and so on. You need to have a sensible rule for which culture group the blended culture goes into - and you have to bear in mind that even with the simplified version you suggest, you can have a Latin/Germanic merger and a Germanic/Latin merger that leads to (theoretically) the same blended culture in both cases, but the original ruling and "peasant" cultures are reversed, potentially affecting which culture group they should be in.
 
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