More living standards that allow a happy "unemployment"

[Bezborg]

Hi yall.

I think we need more utopian abundance equivalents, adjusted to ethics.

A prime candidate for this is the decadent lifestyle, did you notice how this is the only living standard that has no rules for unemployed pops (not sure why that is)?

My train of thought on this is... I feel like the ultimate goal of a technological civilization is to achieve post-scarcity. Also a well-established sci-fi trope. But even if you don't agree with me... why should living in abundance and let the slaves or robots do the menial work be only in the sphere of egalitarians?

Sure, you have "social welfare", but why don't more ethics have access to a more extreme, futuristic utopian ideals of living?

Again, the decadent lifestyle seems like a good candidate for this, which I always thought they should have made some sort of authoritarian equivalent of utopian abundance.

I also think the asension paths should all give access to some sort of unique living standards, as an expression of how utterly transformative these developments are to a society. Imagine, transforming your entire biology in ways unimaginable to your ancestors, changing your very nature and transcending your biological limitations... only to live the same as before? Only now I can use my bionic brain to finally clear that email backlog in my clerk job?

Anyway, I want more living standards in species rights, more unique, more extreme, more more more.

Share your thoughts.

EDIT: I edited the title and put "employment" in quotation marks, as this concept is further refined in the comments below.

 

[Unseelie]

Shoot, I've been told a few times that living standards can't even be modded in. (which is not something I understand, but I figured the guy telling me knew his stuff)

Given that...heck, I'd like any routes to adding some living standards.

I'd really like living standards for singletons living in gestalts that are like:
"ignored"
pop grows and lives on planets.
costs no upkeep and provides no benefits
"tolerated"
pops have an upkeep and can work jobs, but with some negative, as though they are working alongside the machines.
"Free range".
Pops provide food at a reduced rate, and also grow.
"Observed"
pops cost food but provide bonuses to society research.

 

[WarriorofMODS]

Hi yall.

I think we need more utopian abundance equivalents, adjusted to ethics.

A prime candidate for this is the decadent lifestyle, did you notice how this is the only living standard that has no rules for unemployed pops (not sure why that is)?

My train of thought on this is... I feel like the ultimate goal of a technological civilization is to achieve post-scarcity. Also a well-established sci-fi trope. But even if you don't agree with me... why should living in abundance and let the slaves or robots do the menial work be only in the sphere of egalitarians?

Sure, you have "social welfare", but why don't more ethics have access to a more extreme, futuristic utopian ideals of living?

Again, the decadent lifestyle seems like a good candidate for this, which I always thought they should have made some sort of authoritarian equivalent of utopian abundance.

I also think the asension paths should all give access to some sort of unique living standards, as an expression of how utterly transformative these developments are to a society. Imagine, transforming your entire biology in ways unimaginable to your ancestors, changing your very nature and transcending your biological limitations... only to live the same as before? Only now I can use my bionic brain to finally clear that email backlog in my clerk job?

Anyway, I want more living standards in species right, more unique, more extreme, more more more.

Share your thoughts.

Plenty of mods do what PDX is too lazy to do.

 

[Bezborg]

Plenty of mods do what PDX is too lazy to do.

Sure, but I guess the point of this forum is to communicate about the "official" direction of the game... For thoughts on mods I guess we don't have to come here too often

 

[WarriorofMODS]

Sure, but I guess the point of this forum is to communicate about the "official" direction of the game... For thoughts on mods I guess we don't have to come here too often

And the official point of being a game dev is to develop a game and then release it, not the other way around. PDX plays pretty fast and loose with words like 'official', 'serviceable', 'finished' and 'bugtested' amongst many others.

My point is that instead of hoping the devs will actually do what the fans want for once (because let's face it, even if PDX was interested in fulfilling the desires of their fanbase, this fanbase is so divided that there's no 'official direction' for the devs to go into anyway.) Just get some mods. At this point, as far as PDX is concerned, Stellaris is essentially a paid tech demo to help them more properly develop Stellaris 2, and all of our complaints are farts in the wind. If they weren't, then they would have found a way to more properly implement Sectors, FTL variety, ship design, planet and habitat balancing, ground combat, space combat, the damn AI, the market, strategic resources and so much more instead of adding yet another species pack that literally nobody asked for.

I've always found it ironic that modders, who often don't make a dime off of this game, do more for the community and solve more overarching issues far faster than PDX would or could.

 

[Bezborg]

And the official point of being a game dev is to develop a game and then release it, not the other way around. PDX plays pretty fast and loose with words like 'official', 'serviceable', 'finished' and 'bugtested' amongst many others.

My point is that instead of hoping the devs will actually do what the fans want for once (because let's face it, even if PDX was interested in fulfilling the desires of their fanbase, this fanbase is so divided that there's no 'official direction' for the devs to go into anyway.) Just get some mods. At this point, as far as PDX is concerned, Stellaris is essentially a paid tech demo to help them more properly develop Stellaris 2, and all of our complaints are farts in the wind. If they weren't, then they would have found a way to more properly implement Sectors, FTL variety, ship design, planet and habitat balancing, ground combat, space combat, and so much more instead of adding yet another species pack that literally nobody asked for.

I've always found it ironic that modders, who often don't make a dime off of this game, do more for the community and solve more overarching issues far faster than PDX would or could.

Well I can't really argue with you there... I have no comment.

Just wanted to discuss ideas But yeah, you're right. Sadly.

 

[WarriorofMODS]

Well I can't really argue with you there... I have no comment.

Just wanted to discuss ideas But yeah, you're right. Sadly.

I think your ideas are wonderful. In fact, I think many of them are wonderful and the rest are at least cool concepts. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but I lost faith in PDX a long time ago. Upon the release of 2.2 in fact.

I've been with Stellaris since release, and I can tell you that while this game has improved somewhat, it more or less shifted from one type of screwed up to another. PDX took this crummy proof of concept Sci-Fi enigma of a game and turned it into EU4 into space over time without really innovating further or even bugtesting updates. And I'll bet you that in the next few years we'll get Stellaris 2, a game on a new engine but with the majority of the framework already finished in Stellaris with a few minor tweaks and it'll be met with rapturous acclaim.

The only positive is that these forums exist as a way for PDX to add our Ideas onto the sequels to their many games. But we'll have to pay for all of them again. That's probably the best thing I can take from this.

In the words of Padme Amidala, this is how pro-consumerism does: with thunderous applause.

Dramatic, I know.

 

[Bezborg]

I think your ideas are wonderful. In fact, I think many of them are wonderful and the rest are at least cool concepts. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but I lost faith in PDX a long time ago. Upon the release of 2.2 in fact.

I've been with Stellaris since release, and I can tell you that while this game has improved somewhat, it more or less shifted from one type of screwed up to another. PDX took this crummy proof of concept Sci-Fi enigma of a game and turned it into EU4 into space over time without really innovating further. And I'll bet you that in the next few years we'll get Stellaris 2, a game on anew engine but with the majority of the framework already finished in Stellaris with a few minor tweaks and it'll be met with rapturous acclaim.

In the words of Padme Amidala, this is how pro-consumerism does: with thunderous applause.

Dramatic, I know.

Nah mate, I was banned for a few years for the same crime.

Also here since the beginning (Of Paradox, not just Stellaris), and I had a lot of bad things to say after Megacorp.

But as you say, as suggestions don't really work, neither does criticism... So I guess I'm killing some time in a boring job, and just think how they could try and recapture the magic that was the original Stellaris, as (relatively) primitive as it was.

Hoping there will be some inception event for one of the devs...and they get to change things in a year form now. haha.


Meanwhile, necessity forced me to learn how to mod a lot of things. It's sufficient, mostly.

 

[WarriorofMODS]

Nah mate, I was banned for a few years for the same crime.

Also here since the beginning (Of Paradox, not just Stellaris), and I had a lot of bad things to say after Megacorp.

But as you say, as suggestions don't really work, neither does criticism... So I guess I'm killing some time in a boring job, and just think how they could try and recapture the magic that was the original Stellaris, as (relatively) primitive as it was.

Hoping there will be some inception event for one of the devs...and they get to change things in a year form now. haha.


Meanwhile, necessity forced me to learn how to mod a lot of things. It's sufficient, mostly.

Oh, I completely understand. I've been perma-banned off of the Stellaris Steam discussions because of how unwilling people are to hear negative or even just critical opinions. People will accuse you of crimes both real and imagined, smear you through the mud, point out that you have very few achievements despite you having over 3k hours in the game (due to mods) to try and say you either only cheat or just suck, and will even report you for harassment just because you pointed out that 2.2 literally broke the game. All because you told some poor kid to wait to buy Stellaris on sale or to look around for other games. The Steam Forums are even worse than the PDX forums because they're filled with narcissistic nutjobs who believe their views are objective. Also, PDX places the moderators on their and only care about loyalty and zeal towards to company rather than any ability to actually, Y'know, moderate.

I use Expanded Civics and Ethics, the traditional one (the new one changed a little too much for my taste.) Its probably one of the best mods for Stellaris on the workshop. It fixes and improves so much that I find it hard to play base game stellaris anymore. I highly recommend you check it out.

Steam Workshop::Ethics and Civics Classic 3.7

steamcommunity.com

 

[Bezborg]

I use Expanded Civics and Ethics, the traditional one (the new one changed a little too much for my taste.) Its probably one of the best mods for Stellaris on the workshop. It fixes and improves so much that I find it hard to play base game stellaris anymore. I highly recommend you check it out.

Steam Workshop::Ethics and Civics Classic 3.7

steamcommunity.com

much obliged

 

[Paul93]

I think that living standards should be deeply reworked.

First of all, instead of assigning them on a per species basis, which may be a cool concept but becomes useless very fast in any type of playthrough, I think they should be chosen on a per citizenship type basis. The game could then use a couple of citizenship types more. At this point, for each species you simply choose a citizenship type.

Second, I think that living standards in each citizenship type should be assigned by stratum. Instead of having a long list of possibilities which basically considers all possible combinations, simply let's give players the possibility to choose how many CG each stratum can consume (more on that later). Obviously, this would be related to a certain amount of happiness and political power.

Third, instead of a fixed amount of consumption, let's make the living standards selection a multiplier for the real consumption, that can be related to something like tech advancement or the general expansion of the galactic economy. As such, a citizen from 22nd century Earth at the beginning of the space age would consume less than a citizen from 24th century Earth, which for that time has become the centre of a sprawling empire with incredibly more advanced and complex technologies.

Fourth, let's introduce events that make choosing a certain level of living standards an actual choice. Instead of a simple progression from decent to utopian, political, foreign and random factors should make it something that, from time to time, must be re-evaluated. For example, a war breaks out, that causes an increase in the cost of CG (simulated via some modifier), that forces even the most egalitarian government to reduce welfare. Or a new, large xenophobe faction pushes for cutting welfare for xenos.

I don't know, I would really like to feel like governing a living empire, made up of a dynamic population with evolving needs. And most of all, I would like to make real strategic choices. Cosmetics is already dominating.

 

[Bezborg]

I don't know, I would really like to feel like governing a living empire, made up of a dynamic population with evolving needs. And most of all, I would like to make real strategic choices. Cosmetics is already dominating.

agreed. Everyone wants this more than a simplistic map painter with simplistic 6-second battles.

And the game should have gone in that direction after Megacorp design choices… otherwise, what was the point of that? To this day, they haven’t commited to this

 

[DeanTheDull]

A prime candidate for this is the decadent lifestyle, did you notice how this is the only living standard that has no rules for unemployed pops (not sure why that is)?

Decadent Lifestyle has the same unemployment rules that Chemical Bliss, Academic Privilege, Stratified Economy, Decent Conditions, and Basic Sustenance have, namely -20% unhappiness for unemployed pops.

Which is another way of saying that the only living standards that have special rules for Unemployed Pops are Social Wellfare (available to everyone; has an Egalitarian ethics pressure) and the Egalitarian-specific living standards Shared Burdens and Utopian Abundance (must be an Egalitarian to access).

 

[Mastikator]

I can't say that more living standard options should exist. Technically I think fewer should exist. But that is a different topic.

However I do think that living standard should be broken into more pieces.

For example (and this could be per species):

• Education (trades growth rate for productivity)
  • Private only, no subsidy
  • Mixed
  • Public only
• Healthcare (trades consumer goods for happiness and growth)
  • Private only, no subsidy
  • Mixed
  • Public only
• Taxes (trades happiness for trade value)
  • Regressive taxes
  • Progressive taxes
  • Flat taxes
• Consumer goods (unity vs ethos)
  • Government issued
  • Mixed
  • Free market
• Welfare (will replace living standards)
  • No welfare
  • Existence minimum welfare
  • Thriving welfare
• Family aid (parental leave, benefits, etc) (trades consumer goods and productivity for growth)
  • No family aid
  • Limited family aid
  • Family values first
• Universal income (gives flat amount of consumer goods to pops)
  • None
  • +0.1
  • +0.25
  • +0.5
  • +1

Ethics and civics could add or remove options, while these are "just" bonuses/penalties they do flesh out the RP aspect a lot more than "social welfare".

 

[TrotBot]

I think living standards need jealousy mechanics. Both between different pops in an empire, and between pops in different empires.

If I spend hundreds of CG a month on utopian abundance, decadent workers next door should want utopian abundance. And they should have a chance of carrying out a revolution for it, which I can promote with espionage and arm.

As for new living standards, sure I'd want more, but without losing the jealousy potential. Egalitarians should always have the best life for the lower classes.

 

[Ludaire]

I'd personally rather not have the game go in the "kitchen sink" direction that many mods go. Having to scroll through two dozen living standards trying to pick out the specific one you're looking for or trying to decipher which of the many subtly different options is the best for you sounds like a nightmare.

I think they have a good number right now. I'd rather see them go a deeper and differentiate them a bit more rather than simply make more. For example, unemployed pops aren't a significant problem the way they once were, which reduces the identity of the utopian and similar standards a lot (especially since egalitarians aren't supposed to disable migration controls and democracy helps unemployed pops move to get re-employed faster).

I'd prefer quality over quantity. And before you say "Why not both?" please remember that the devs' time is finite so the more time they spend on this, the less time they can spend on performance, AI, and all the other features where improvements would make a much bigger impact on the game.

However I do think that living standard should be broken into more pieces.

I like this idea as a way to make things more interesting and nuanced, but I think they should only split it into 3-4 separate concepts rather than 7. It means they could spend more time making those choices interesting and varied rather than just making more that provide a slightly different numbers buff.

 

[John MacWhat]

OP, I just think that Utopian Abundance and Decadent Lifestyle are meant to show different things. Utopian Abundance is the post-scarcity society like the United Federation of Planets, where the Decadent Lifestyle is meant to be more like the Ferengi Alliance and show off a system where the upper tier of pop jobs still care about accumulating personal wealth and have a much better life than those who work under them. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing unemployed pops under Decadent Lifestyle get auto employed as servants or something, because to me that lifestyle screams extreme wealth inequality.

 

[Bezborg]

OP, I just think that Utopian Abundance and Decadent Lifestyle are meant to show different things. Utopian Abundance is the post-scarcity society like the United Federation of Planets, where the Decadent Lifestyle is meant to be more like the Ferengi Alliance and show off a system where the upper tier of pop jobs still care about accumulating personal wealth and have a much better life than those who work under them. Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing unemployed pops under Decadent Lifestyle get auto employed as servants or something, because to me that lifestyle screams extreme wealth inequality.

Actually, if we want to go into lore arguments… decadent lifestyle should function like domestic servitude - i.e. once all jobs slots are filled, the excess population fills a non-static job slot - but in reverse!

What I mean is, the excess should not become servant jobs, but actually become idle masters living in absolute luxury.

So, instead of the “excess pops that have no jobs to fill” opening up bottom-tier servant jobs… in decadent lifestyle, they go upwards, to a top-tier “idle master” job, that has everything (has achieved the decadent society’s goal) and literally everyone working is beneath them

 

[TrotBot]

Actually, if we want to go into lore arguments… decadent lifestyle should function like domestic servitude - i.e. once all jobs slots are filled, the excess population fills a non-static job slot - but in reverse!

What I mean is, the excess should not become servant jobs, but actually become idle masters living in absolute luxury.

So, instead of the “excess pops that have no jobs to fill” opening up bottom-tier servant jobs… in decadent lifestyle, they go upwards, to a top-tier “idle master” job, that has everything (has achieved the decadent society’s goal) and literally everyone working is beneath them

Except unequal societies have LESS upward mobility, not more. Why would an unemployed person become a ruler?

 

[Bezborg]

Except unequal societies have LESS upward mobility, not more. Why would an unemployed person become a ruler?

Who says they’re unemployed?

it pushes upwards. Meaning a new pop occupies the lowest jobs, and pushes the entire chain upwards, and a ruler becomes the master… i.e. they have transcended any need to perform a social function, there is only the pursuit of luxury. True meaning of decadence