More interesting mercenary companies

[Denkt]

In CK2 the mercenary companies are basically all the same other than the troop types they have, maybe they could be given a bit more character, like by be given attributes which can maybe change depending on Company leader and maybe events:

• Loyalty: How willingly they stay with the employeer, low loyalty companies would be risky to hire because they could be bribed to leave/defect while companies with strong loyalty will basically only leave if you can't pay them.
• Discipline: Companies with low discipline will likely plunder the local which may make them and you disliked with companies with high discipline will avoid doing such and thus cause less problems for you.
• Religion could matter for some companies more than others, same for Culture.
• Reputation: Probably a value that can change alot depending on stuff happening with the company but generally the higher the reputation the more sought after the company is by the ai and the more competition there is for a company the higher their cost to employ could be. Reputation could may also increase the possible hire range of the Company as more distant realms get knowledge of it.

 

[ikki]

Not more organised, more like less organized. Please.
Get mercenaries? Well no such thing as having used mercenaries and not having a bandit problem. Otoh if you have a bandit problem, getting mercenaries is quicker and cheaper. But ends up spreading the problem. You could ofcourse send out your own troops to massacre the mercenarry/bandits. Saves taxes.
All in all they would easily break and not entirely infrequently turn against you. Roll some invisible wealth/strength/intrigue roll to see if they flip.

There isnt after all some damn united death technicians union. So no named groups asde from random name generation.
By all means include culture, religion. Sacking places would create bands that spread out as a bandit plague.

Oh and lets not forget the prince was quite skeptical regarding the usefulness of these unreliable forces.

 

[Ezumiyr]

Well no such thing as having used mercenaries and not having a bandit problem. Otoh if you have a bandit problem, getting mercenaries is quicker and cheaper. But ends up spreading the problem. You could ofcourse send out your own troops to massacre the mercenarry/bandits.

That's game logic though.
Bandits IRL didn't work like bandits in works of fiction, where people became bandits living in bandit camps and doing bandit things. It was more a question of loss of authority, that lead the people to do things they wouldn't dare to try before that.
Wars always create lawless zones, mercenaries or not, where some former soliders - deserters and mercenaries - try to take advantage of the situation. Generally by pillaging.

I'm not a fan of representing the ability to massacre mercenaries and similar things, because war is very abstracted in CK. You usually don't get to make this kind of decisions... It could be a random event though.

 

[Dayvit78]

What would be interesting to me is that they fix the number of mercenaries available, especially late game; and that they fix the ridiculous pathfinding/exile and mercenary hiring rules; and lastly the ability to hire mercenaries should not simply be based on having gold/military mana available, but actually a chance of winning the war. No mercenary band is going to willingly get hired by some minor nation that's about to get stomped -> because they won't get paid and they'll all die! These are mercenaries, not idealistic freedom fighters.

 

[Denkt]

You can also make some mercenary companies disband or defect if they are defeated which make them risker to use.

 

[Pied-Noir]

What would be interesting to me is that they fix the number of mercenaries available, especially late game; and that they fix the ridiculous pathfinding/exile and mercenary hiring rules; and lastly the ability to hire mercenaries should not simply be based on having gold/military mana available, but actually a chance of winning the war. No mercenary band is going to willingly get hired by some minor nation that's about to get stomped -> because they won't get paid and they'll all die! These are mercenaries, not idealistic freedom fighters.

I don't like this at all. You're basically making it so that 'weaker' characters can never win, because mercenaries will never join them. You're removing the underdog factor and making it much, much harder for stronger characters/armies to ever lose. This will have a terrible domino effect.

 

[Denkt]

I don't like this at all. You're basically making it so that 'weaker' characters can never win, because mercenaries will never join them. You're removing the underdog factor and making it much, much harder for stronger characters/armies to ever lose. This will have a terrible domino effect.

CK3 have given the weaker some buffs in warfare such as the besieger is considered the attacker and the combat width is based on the defender's army. However if you block merc recruitment if you are losing it is going to be very problematic for the loser to make any sort of comeback.

 

[Dayvit78]

I don't like this at all. You're basically making it so that 'weaker' characters can never win, because mercenaries will never join them. You're removing the underdog factor and making it much, much harder for stronger characters/armies to ever lose. This will have a terrible domino effect.

Tell me honestly - do these mercs hired by the losers ever help? Or are they more just whack-a-mole that annoys the player but doesn't change the outcome? If the latter, there need to be better mechanics to allow weaker states to survive. Mercs is not the answer.

 

[viola]

Tell me honestly - do these mercs hired by the losers ever help? Or are they more just whack-a-mole that annoys the player but doesn't change the outcome? If the latter, there need to be better mechanics to allow weaker states to survive. Mercs is not the answer.

In my experience mercenaries are exactly the thing that can make a small nation beat a mid-sized one if they have the money. Venice isn't going to beat the Holy Roman Empire with mercenaries, but it can definitely beat opponents much larger than her with them.

 

[Pied-Noir]

Tell me honestly - do these mercs hired by the losers ever help? Or are they more just whack-a-mole that annoys the player but doesn't change the outcome? If the latter, there need to be better mechanics to allow weaker states to survive. Mercs is not the answer.

Yes, they do help, and see @viola's point above.

Sorry, but not letting arbitrarily-decided 'weaker' characters hire mercenaries is possibly the single worst idea I've so far seen proposed for this game.

 

[Denkt]

In my experience mercenaries are exactly the thing that can make a small nation beat a mid-sized one if they have the money. Venice isn't going to beat the Holy Roman Empire with mercenaries, but it can definitely beat opponents much larger than her with them.

With enough mercenaries you can probably see Venice beat the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[Dayvit78]

You guys seem to be talking about if the player controls mercenaries. Well, of course, the player can do it. The player is skilled enough to use them correctly. I'm asking if the AI can do it? Can an AI Venice beat the HRE? And please keep in mind our newest experience with mercenaries in Imperator.

Also clarification - "weaker" in the sense of OPM, not just in absolute terms. Obviouisly, if the AI is about 50% your size, then sure they can still attract mercenaries. But an AI who is 1% your size, no way.

 

[Secuter]

In CK2 the mercenary companies are basically all the same other than the troop types they have, maybe they could be given a bit more character, like by be given attributes which can maybe change depending on Company leader and maybe events:

• Loyalty: How willingly they stay with the employeer, low loyalty companies would be risky to hire because they could be bribed to leave/defect while companies with strong loyalty will basically only leave if you can't pay them.
• Discipline: Companies with low discipline will likely plunder the local which may make them and you disliked with companies with high discipline will avoid doing such and thus cause less problems for you.
• Religion could matter for some companies more than others, same for Culture.
• Reputation: Probably a value that can change alot depending on stuff happening with the company but generally the higher the reputation the more sought after the company is by the ai and the more competition there is for a company the higher their cost to employ could be. Reputation could may also increase the possible hire range of the Company as more distant realms get knowledge of it.

I think the discussion is derailing a little bit. Lets return to what we were discussing.

I like the idea of Mercenary companies becoming more fleshed out. A great example of such mercs are the Swiss mercs which gained a reputation of loyalty and skillfulness. I'm not entirely sure about how the loyalty will work because I can see it creating some really annoying situations. Also, Mercenaries were rarely banded into large singular armies which fought together always.

Mercenaries would often come from nobles who lent themselves and their retinues in exchange for pay. I could see that happen too, which also would give you something to do in peacetime. Thus you could simply sell yourself and your armies to the highest bidder.