More formable countries

[Wizzington]

You can become King of Burgundy by upgrading your government rank though, so I don't really see the need for a special Lotharingia decision there.Charles would've accepted pretty much any title as long as it let him style himself a King.

 

[zsImmortal]

Well, you're right on flavor, but gameplay wise, implementing a Yuan forming decision based on the Qing one would allow Mongolia to get upgraded to Empire (something the Northern Yuan were adamant they still were), as well as giving claims and more generally, a good sense of fullfillment while playing in this region (in my opinion of course). Therefore, I think this formable has a lot of merit being included into the game. Forming Yuan would of course require to own Beijing and a good chunk of NorthEast China.

My problem with 'forming the Yuan' is that it already exists. That's like saying the Mughal should be able to form the Timurids if they take over Persia and Transoxiana. It's nonsensical.

 

[HabemusZlatan]

Mongolia already is the Yuan as is. It's the Northern Yuan.

That's the reason some sort of boon to a Mongolia player that conquers China needs to exist. Right now, conquering China as Mongolia is the same as conquering China as Dai Viet, despite the Great Khans of Mongolia never really recognizing the Ming as the new Emperors of China, and still clinging on the title and the claim they had.
It's a matter of flavour, as the Mongols never had any pan-altaic expansionist policy (more pan-mongol if anything), and it's interesting to actually make them move succesfully against China.

tl;dr: It's flavourful, historically plausible and makes you not conquer dirt poor swamps and steppes.

 

[Wizzington]

While having Yuan as the name of a revived Mongol China would not really be correct, there's really no other name you could use that anyone would recognize as 'Mongol China'.

 

[Ethanol]

I haven't abandonned hope of seeing Belgium added to the game.

(See the thread in the suggestion forum https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/belgium-tag-and-nis.860368/ )

 

[zsImmortal]

That's the reason some sort of boon to a Mongolia player that conquers China needs to exist. Right now, conquering China as Mongolia is the same as conquering China as Dai Viet, despite the Great Khans of Mongolia never really recognizing the Ming as the new Emperors of China, and still clinging on the title and the claim they had.
It's a matter of flavour, as the Mongols never had any pan-altaic expansionist policy (more pan-mongol if anything), and it's interesting to actually make them move succesfully against China.

tl;dr: It's flavourful, historically plausible and makes you not conquer dirt poor swamps and steppes.

Never had any pan-altaic policy? Maybe not. But they sure as hell went that way during the EU4 timeline, on top of taking the cores they get at the start of the game.

 

[zsImmortal]

While having Yuan as the name of a revived Mongol China would not really be correct, there's really no other name you could use that anyone would recognize as 'Mongol China'.

That is fair enough. But how about just having a decision 'Reinstate Mongol rule in China', which would put your capital in Beijing and change the tag to Mongol Khaganate and go to empire rank?

 

[MiniaAr]

That is fair enough. But how about just having a decision 'Reinstate Mongol rule in China', which would put your capital in Beijing and change the tag to Mongol Khaganate and go to empire rank?

Wiz presumably doesn't like it as you might reform your government at some point and actually not be a Khanate anymore. (I'm neutral on this personally).

 

[zsImmortal]

Wiz presumably doesn't like it as you might reform your government at some point and actually not be a Khanate anymore. (I'm neutral on this personally).

Khan roughly means king in Turkic tongues afaik, Khagan is to designate emperors. This is just a cultural variant of titles, like a Shah or Padishah.

 

[HabemusZlatan]

That is fair enough. But how about just having a decision 'Reinstate Mongol rule in China', which would put your capital in Beijing and change the tag to Mongol Khaganate and go to empire rank?

It would be more practical to just rename Mongolia into Yuan directly, and then bestow missions/decisions and claims once you do the stuff you need to do.
The concern I have with this road is that you get generic Horde ideas to go along your empire.
The other one is that the Northern Yuans were already Khagans in their own right, but that can be fixed with a simple decisions when you break through Oirats' vassalage. And that the Oirats too could benefit from a Mongol China new tag, since they were Mongols too and attempted to invade China under Esen Taishi, which was pretty much the ruler of the Northern Yuans on his own right.
So that's why I don't really like to just rename Mongolia and prefer to have a brand new tag, just opens up more possibilities.

Khan roughly means king in Turkic tongues afaik, Khagan is to designate emperors. This is just a cultural variant of titles, like a Shah or Padishah.

Welp, that could be solved (if it's possible, of course) by just changing the name of you ruler if you reform. Becoming a generic "King" isn't really that much fun, when you can be the Khan.

 

[zsImmortal]

It would be more practical to just rename Mongolia into Yuan directly, and then bestow missions/decisions and claims once you do the stuff you need to do.
The concern I have with this road is that you get generic Horde ideas to go along your empire.
The other one is that the Northern Yuans were already Khagans in their own right, but that can be fixed with a simple decisions when you break through Oirats' vassalage. And that the Oirats too could benefit from a Mongol China new tag, since they were Mongols too and attempted to invade China under Esen Taishi.

Well it could be available to all Altaic cultures. The main problem with anyone taking the Yuan title other than Borjigins is that it is in itself sacrilege to the Mongols. To be Khan, you absolutely had to be of the Borjigin clan. Esen Taishi tried to take the Khanate and sparked a civil war which got him killed and reinstated the Borjigin as the authentic rulers, not just puppets (one of my bigger pet peeves of the 1444 start date is that the Oirat seldom have problems keeping control of Mongolia, which was fairly relevant for half of the EU4 timeline).

 

[HabemusZlatan]

Well it could be available to all Altaic cultures. The main problem with anyone taking the Yuan title other than Borjigins is that it is in itself sacrilege to the Mongols. To be Khan, you absolutely had to be of the Borjigin clan. Esen Taishi tried to take the Khanate and sparked a civil war which got him killed and reinstated the Borjigin as the authentic rulers, not just puppets (one of my bigger pet peeves of the 1444 start date is that the Oirat seldom have problems keeping control of Mongolia, which was fairly relevant for half of the EU4 timeline).

The only "odd" altaic countries, anyway, are Kazakh and Chagatai. The rest are just Mongol tribes and I want the Sarig Yogir > Yuan dream to live. Oirats are also an interesting country to play as at game start, just to give a shot about the whole conquer China thing right off the bat.

 

[grandadmiralbob]

Wiz, please add Tartarstan, or whatever, as well as some Mongol Altaic formation! Please, and maybe something else in SE Asia. I've convinced a handful of people to buy your game and I have almost 4k hours playing. It's the least you could do. I'll even spread anti-Danish propaganda.

 

[Ilightmaster]

Personally i would like to see more formable nation outside of europe like an African Union or a Magreb like Arabia despite an africain union would make only sense to be unlock with a westernized african country after ADM tech 22.

 

[LoriKe]

Just recently searched up the division of the frankish empire and found the middle francia was later split in three as well.

The resulting countries were:
1.the Kingdom of Lotharingia, which was already stated by Wiz that he don't want it in the game

2.Kingdom of Italy(already in)

3.Kingdom of Arles which consisted of the lower parts of burgundy and provence, both of which are duchies and could use a decision to become a kingdom

 

[HabemusZlatan]

Just recently searched up the division of the frankish empire and found the middle francia was later split in three as well.

The resulting countries were:
1.the Kingdom of Lotharingia, which was already stated by Wiz that he don't want it in the game

2.Kingdom of Italy(already in)

3.Kingdom of Arles which consisted of the lower parts of burgundy and provence, both of which are duchies and could use a decision to become a kingdom

I guess Wiz's answer to the question would be "Reach enough development, become King, gg no re".
Which is also my opinion on the matter.

Italy itself exists in game just because there were attempts at creating a Kingdom of Italy (or an unitarian Italian state) during the period, and it was eventually created by Napoleon as a puppet state.
Also, the Italian Crown was a pretty big deal, compared to the arbitrary Kingdom of Arles and Lotharingia, which exclude each other as the only man that had any interest in creating somethink akin was Charles the Bold, and he didn't really care about the name, as long as that would crown him King ( It was either Arles of Burgundy, leaving Lotharingia out of the possibilities anyway).

Which is entirely already doable in game. Just reach enough development to become King and you've pretty much done.

 

[WeissRaben]

I guess Wiz's answer to the question would be "Reach enough development, become King, gg no re".
Which is also my opinion on the matter.

Italy itself exists in game just because there were attempts at creating a Kingdom of Italy (or an unitarian Italian state) during the period, and it was eventually created by Napoleon as a puppet state.
Also, the Italian Crown was a pretty big deal, compared to the arbitrary Kingdom of Arles and Lotharingia, which exclude each other as the only man that had any interest in creating somethink akin was Charles the Bold, and he didn't really care about the name, as long as that would crown him King ( It was either Arles of Burgundy, leaving Lotharingia out of the possibilities anyway).

Which is entirely already doable in game. Just reach enough development to become King and you've pretty much done.

Does it deactivate the Burgundian Inheritance?

 

[de Ptysz]

Two Sicilies: Not significant enough. Sardinia-Piedmont at least has a use in upgrading Savoy from Duchy to Kingdom, but both Naples and Sicily are Kingdoms already.

I disagree, makes as much sense as recently added formable Tuscany, which also doesn't elevate rank. Apart from historical reasons adding TS would give some nice flavor to Sicily and Naples.

Lotharingia: Very anachronistic. Probably not.

What about giving Burgundy decision to reform into Lorraine (obvious trigger: LOR doesn't exist) and elevate rank? BTW, Lorraine should at last receive their own NI.

Latin Empire: Would be a cool alternative to Jerusalem, only thing I don't like is 'Empire' in the name.

Then... Rhomania? The official name was Imperium Romaniae, so nominative would be Romania, but adding another nation with that name could be confusing

Turkey: Ehh, I think some sort of non-dynastic naming for dynastic countries that turn republics would be better.

Why not just add dynamic country names Vic2-style? Would also solve the problem with republic-monarchy naming for other countries like Kingdom of England -> Commonwealth of England.

 

[Kansai-kun]

What about giving Burgundy decision to reform into Lorraine (obvious trigger: LOR doesn't exist) and elevate rank? BTW, Lorraine should at last receive their own NI.

Lorraine =/= Lotharingia.

 

[Metz]

Golden Horde as a formable: Ehh, I'd prefer something like 'Tatarstan' or 'Tataria' even if it's not historical, I don't like tags that have the government form in the name and would change the name of GH if there was anything reasonable to replace it with.
Yuan: I could see this being added.
Two Sicilies: Not significant enough. Sardinia-Piedmont at least has a use in upgrading Savoy from Duchy to Kingdom, but both Naples and Sicily are Kingdoms already.
Lotharingia: Very anachronistic. Probably not.
Latin Empire: Would be a cool alternative to Jerusalem, only thing I don't like is 'Empire' in the name.
Rajputjana: Sure, why not?
Turkey: Ehh, I think some sort of non-dynastic naming for dynastic countries that turn republics would be better.

Yugoslavia?