More Cultures?

[unmerged(35978)]

I've just red some parts of the "South Slavic" culture discussion, but it's one thing I haven't found one word about....

The Romanians (or Wallachians). They're not even Slavic, they're actually of the Romanic language family, the same as French, Italian, Latin, Spanish etc. So it's totally wrong to have the Romanians in the South Slavic culture group.

And they're names wasn't (and isn't) even similar to the Slavic peoples (they had some names in common, but that was because they were lent from other languages and the bible). So they're the most important culture to take out of that "group".

But you still have to split it up the rest into Serbian, Croatian and Bulgarian (not Bosnian, and I don't think it's a good idea to make a Slovene culture, but maybe I'm wrong. Albanian isn't a Slavic culture, but shall also be in the game, and Slovakian is a Western Slavic culture, but you can split up the Western Slavic to, if anyone knows how to)

The most important reason to split it up is, of course, the cultural differences, but also the name difference between the languages (Bulgarian names are really different to Serbian and Croatian names, and Croatian is different to Serbian (they are just as different as Norwegian and Swedish names, and they are two different cultures, right))

Other cultures that should be in the game:
Breton
Provençale (it's better than calling them Catalans)
Galician (or maybe it should be Portuguese)
Albanian (I don't know how important the Albanians were then, but I don't care)
Slovakian (it's not the same thing as Bohemians, but almost)

And here is some cultures you maybe should have in the game:
Flemish (I don't really know if it should be Dutch or not)
Cornish
Frisian
Scanian (I don't believe nobody else but me thinks so, but they were and are different to Swedes and Danes)
Low Germans (they actually had another culture, language and other names)

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Provencale is already covered as "Occitan", which is used for most of southern France.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

Bosnia would establish itself as an independant state by the end of the era on equality with the other cultures that I propose South Slavic be split up into. Overall I feel it is justified to make Bosnia a culture on par with it's neighbors Serbia and Croatia to reflect more or less the fact that Bosnia was poorly integrated into both the Serbian and Croatian national/cultural units and it's destiny throughout the medieval period was by no means the same as that of Croatia and Serbia, thus warranting the recognition of a Bosnian (or Bosniak) culture.

Really the problem with dividing up South Slavic is where you draw the dividing lines between cultural boundries that were constantly shifting over time. I have outlined the borders of the the distinct national groups (I'm not sure about Zeta, should it be Albanian?) below.

As you can see the Bulgarians are by far the largest group and are dominant in the east while the Bosnians have been extented over into a nearby province (the one with the cross against the striped background) controlled by Croatia. I did this beacause I noticed that that province was Orthodox just while the majority are Catholic.

I think I've outlin

 

[unmerged(31117)]

Bosnia would establish itself as an independant state by the end of the era on equality with the other cultures that I propose South Slavic be split up into. Overall I feel it is justified to make Bosnia a culture on par with it's neighbors Serbia and Croatia to reflect more or less the fact that Bosnia was poorly integrated into both the Serbian and Croatian national/cultural units and it's destiny throughout the medieval period was by no means the same as that of Croatia and Serbia, thus warranting the recognition of a Bosnian (or Bosniak) culture.

Really the problem with dividing up South Slavic is where you draw the dividing lines between cultural boundries that were constantly shifting over time. I have outlined the borders of the the distinct national groups (I'm not sure about Zeta, should it be Albanian?) below.

As you can see the Bulgarians are by far the largest group and are dominant in the east while the Bosnians have been extented over into a nearby province (the one with the cross against the striped background) controlled by Croatia. I did this beacause I noticed that that province was Orthodox just while the majority are Catholic.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Bosnia would establish itself as an independant state by the end of the era on equality with the other cultures that I propose South Slavic be split up into. Overall I feel it is justified to make Bosnia a culture on par with it's neighbors Serbia and Croatia to reflect more or less the fact that Bosnia was poorly integrated into both the Serbian and Croatian national/cultural units and it's destiny throughout the medieval period was by no means the same as that of Croatia and Serbia, thus warranting the recognition of a Bosnian (or Bosniak) culture.

As I said before there was no such thing as distinct Bosnian(or Bosniak) cutlure. This was simply a teritorial term denoting a man coming from Bosnia same as for example was Rascian(for man coming from Rashka) or Dalmatian(for man coming from Dalmatia).
Culturally, linguistically and even politically Bosnians didn't differ from Croats(rulers that is), in fact they were Croats and you can observe that by their political system and titles and by the surnames which were all Croatian. Serbs also had a rather significant role in Bosnia as well. Bosnia also held a significant part of Serbian territory(area where Serbs lived). In shor Bosniaks are muslim Croats and Serbs who developed their own national awarness during the Ottoman era.

As you can see the Bulgarians are by far the largest group and are dominant in the east while the Bosnians have been extented over into a nearby province (the one with the cross against the striped background) controlled by Croatia. I did this beacause I noticed that that province was Orthodox just while the majority are Catholic.

The thing is that this culture should not be Orthodox. Bosnia was not an Orthodox but a Catholic country. The province where Serb live should be Orthodx, the provinces where Croats live should be Catholic.
In fact It is my opinion that provinces are totally wrong, but what can we do...we must work with it the best we can. for that purpose I created few maps to show you. They include both political and ethnic map of this area.

Ethnic map:

Light blue - Slovene
Dark Grey - Croatian
Teal/Dark Green - Serbian
Brown - Bulgarian
Light Grey - Wallachian/Romanian
Orange - Albanian

Political maps:

Grey - K.of Croatia
Yellow - K.of Bosnia
Green - K.of Serbia

Duchies/Principalites

Green - Slavonia
Grey - Croatia
Light Blue - Dalmatia
Yellow - Bosnia
Orange - Rashka
Light Brown - Zeta/Doclea
Dark Brown - Strymon/Macedonia
Teal - Vidin/Bdin
White - Temes/Banat

btw. the provinces are totally wrong IMO. The names are teribble. IMO it would be better if Rama is renamed to Usora and Usora become Rama, because Rama is essentially the core Bosnian province and it's been made too much to the east. Also the current Zahumlje province is far to the west, it is also strange that we have Hum province because Zahumlje and Hum are one and the same thing. It is even more strange to see Ragusa in totally wrong place since Ragusa is is that small bump on Split region with a bit of current Ragusa coastal part....the rest is what should be the real and correct Zahumlje. I just wish we have an editor for CK as for EU2 so we can fix this...ah well...we must work with what we got.

 

[Yakman]

Do we really need a Slovene culture? Why not just lump them with the Croats?

 

[unmerged(35978)]

Provencale is already covered as "Occitan", which is used for most of southern France.

But that's wrong, because the Provençale and the Occitan is two different things, the Occitans were a kind of "Romanic" Franks (the Franks were also a Romanic people, but they had more similarities to the Germanic peoples) and the Provençales were (and are) a different people, but they still are Romanic, and are closest related to Catalans.

 

[unmerged(35978)]

By the way.... the Albanians aren't in the South Slavic culture, they are not in the game at all. I just wanted to point that out, but they should still be in the game, so ... it doesn't really matter.

 

[Hastu Neon]

As per Italian peninsula, at that point of history there should be really only 4 cultures:

Romans (Latins) - those who where here in 476 AC
Greeks - those who came back under Justinian in the VI century
Lombards - the latecomers - VIII century
Normans - the ultralatecomers, just arrived

Normans and Greeks are concentrated in Southern Italy, Lombards inhabit the interior part of Southern Italy (Duchy of Benevento), Central Italy (Duchy of Spoleto) and a great part of the North. Romans in the Centre and part of the North.

Just my 2 (Italian) cents

 

[unmerged(27913)]

But that's wrong, because the Provençale and the Occitan is two different things, the Occitans were a kind of "Romanic" Franks (the Franks were also a Romanic people, but they had more similarities to the Germanic peoples) and the Provençales were (and are) a different people, but they still are Romanic, and are closest related to Catalans.

All Occitan languages were close related to Catalan. Some considered Catalan-Occitan to be the same language actually. Anyway Occitan had few dialects, but they were all part of the same language (group), Provencal is one of them.

Do we really need a Slovene culture? Why not just lump them with the Croats?

Hmm...I am not sure about that...although Slovenes did share common language with Croats in those times. Personally I think that Slovenes would probably assimilate into Croatian nation if they were under the Austrian rule for so long just as I think Slovaks would probably asimilate into Czech or Polish ntion if they weren't under so much different Hungarian rule....but thats not the question. I personally believe we should have Slovene culture.

As per Italian peninsula, at that point of history there should be really only 4 cultures:

Romans (Latins) - those who where here in 476 AC
Greeks - those who came back under Justinian in the VI century
Lombards - the latecomers - VIII century
Normans - the ultralatecomers, just arrived

Normans and Greeks are concentrated in Southern Italy, Lombards inhabit the interior part of Southern Italy (Duchy of Benevento), Central Italy (Duchy of Spoleto) and a great part of the North. Romans in the Centre and part of the North.

Just my 2 (Italian) cents

That might be a good solution, but Latin is a bit strange for a name don't you think? Then again it would be a good thing since then we could make Ragusa Latin as it was more Latin then Slavic in culture back then. It never was Italian though...Italian denotes something more modern and they certainly weren't Italians. Might be good.

 

[Yakman]

But that's wrong, because the Provençale and the Occitan is two different things, the Occitans were a kind of "Romanic" Franks (the Franks were also a Romanic people, but they had more similarities to the Germanic peoples) and the Provençales were (and are) a different people, but they still are Romanic, and are closest related to Catalans.

It's good enough for government work.

Albanians would only occupy two provinces... is there a need?

Another thing, how many culture tags do we have to work with... does anyone know?

I don't think that we really need to split up Italy. A Greek south and an Italian North is just dandy for me...

 

[Hastu Neon]

That might be a good solution, but Latin is a bit strange for a name don't you think? Then again it would be a good thing since then we could make Ragusa Latin as it was more Latin then Slavic in culture back then. It never was Italian though...Italian denotes something more modern and they certainly weren't Italians. Might be good.

Roman is OK. Did Charles the Great, Otto and the others come to Rome to be crowned King of the Romans? And Romans called themselves those who lived in Italy and where not - in chronological order of arrival - Eruls, Goths, Byzantines, Lombards, Franks or Normans ...

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Another thing, how many culture tags do we have to work with... does anyone know?

We have Eastern and Western Slavic, Ugric-Baltic, Norse, Celtic, Iberian, Byznatine and Abghazian.
We also have Templar, Teutonic and Hospitaler...but I am not sure if that wouldn't mess up the culture of mercanaries you get from these orders...I mean if would strange if you get 500 Templars Knights who are Slovak or something. :rofl:

I don't think that we really need to split up Italy. A Greek south and an Italian North is just dandy for me...

Yes but Italian is a bit too modern name IMO. Latin would be better...of course it would not be perfect but it would mean something less "loaction-determined" so we can add this culture to some other non Italian provinces like for example Ragusa who was never Italian, but was Latin....the same goes for Istria.

Roman is OK. Did Charles the Great, Otto and the others come to Rome to be crowned King of the Romans? And Romans called themselves those who lived in Italy and where not - in chronological order of arrival - Eruls, Goths, Byzantines, Lombards, Franks or Normans ...

Hmm...but Romans is a bit too ancient. I think Latin would be better. What about Italic? I know basically all Romance languages belong to this group but it would work fine when we know how many different Romance speaking groups there were in Italy(Apenine peninsula) and around it...

 

[unmerged(31117)]

The Basques don't exactly cover a large area either but their still in the game, their definately should be Albanian Culture.

As for the Bosnians, Bosnia ie the three Bosnian provinces from my map of ethnic groups in the 1066 scenario are Orthodox not Catholic.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

As for the Bosnians, Bosnia ie the three Bosnian provinces from my map of ethnic groups in the 1066 scenario are Orthodox not Catholic.

If you are going to make a separate Bosnian culture then they must be Catholic.

 

[Yakman]

Okay, so we have 8 free tags--I don't think the Knights should be messed with... yet.

1. Moorish
2. Syriac
3. Egyptian
4. Romanian/Wallachian
5. Bulgarian
6. Serbian
7. Kroat [covers Slovenes & Bosniacs]
8. Bohemian

sound good?
8.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Considering that nobody is even discussing them, and nobody ever did register an objection, one of those should be Breton...

And also, just a reminder, people. Cultures themselves are not directly tied to a religion; characters (and provinces) have a culture and a religion, which can be defined seperately. Therefore, if the only significant differences are religious, they do not need a seperate culture.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

We already have Bohemian...it only needs to be renamed to Czech.
We should also rename Italian to Italic or Latin IMO...I like Italic better personally.

Anyway these are the cultures that should be added:
Croatian
Serbian
Bulgarian
Slovak
Breton
Wallachian/Romanian
Albanian
Berber(North African and Moorish)
Egyptian
Syrian (or Assyrian?)

Btw. do we really need Prussian culture?
And what about Wendish? This culture could be added up to the North(Mecklenburg) and could be used to cover Slovene culture as well since Austrian(Germans) called them Wends at one point.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

Definately Breton so obviously needs to be put into the game, that noone even bothers to discuss them!

 

[Yakman]

We already have Bohemian...it only needs to be renamed to Czech.
We should also rename Italian to Italic or Latin IMO...I like Italic better personally.

Anyway these are the cultures that should be added:
Croatian
Serbian
Bulgarian
Slovak
Breton
Wallachian/Romanian
Albanian
Berber(North African and Moorish)
Egyptian
Syrian (or Assyrian?)

Btw. do we really need Prussian culture?
And what about Wendish? This culture could be added up to the North(Mecklenburg) and could be used to cover Slovene culture as well since Austrian(Germans) called them Wends at one point.

we have only 8 tags. You have too many here. If we throw Breton in there instead of Bohemian, we'd be good.