More Cultures?

[unmerged(39020)]

Clarification from a native

I read what You said about Tara Romaneasca meaning the coury of the Romans... I must say that that term is in Romanian , whisc is a Latin language... so that attests the fact that the provonce was in habited by thr romanians not by the "south slavs"...on the other hand if I am to translate what Tara Romaneasca means into English, it would turn out to be THE ROMANIAN (=Romaneasca) COUNTRY (=Tara)...there you go...as for Moldavia...it is also inhabited by the Romanians...as is Siebenburgen , Banat, Bujak and Dobrodjea... it got it's name from a river in which the dog of the founder of the country (Bogdan), named Molda drowned in, so the ruler named the river after his dog (Moldova)... Molda---->Moldova (thats the Romanian word for the saxon Moldovia)---> Moldavia (in saxon---English)...ig you have any more questions on this subject I would be happy to answer them...

 

[Tzar Kalojan]

This sounds to me as the story that today Macedonians are the inheritors of Alexander the Great...
Could you please give us sources of your statements?

 

[unmerged(39020)]

What do you mean the ledgend of the Macedonians ang Alexander the Great...? I can't see you point....

 

[unmerged(39020)]

Hey, Kalojan... I would like to talk to you... could you please respond...thanks

 

[Kochtopfhelm]

The slavic tribes in mecklenburg and eastern holstein were the obotrites (dont know if thats their correct english translated name). Why just call all slavs between elbe river and polish culture west-slavic?

About the frisians, i think from holstein to frisia all the coast of the north sea should become frisian.

Germans should be split, at least in north and south, or lower and upper germans. I would even suggest to make some flemish (low lands, belgium), saxonian (northern germany west of elbe river, non coast except hamburg), allemani (southwest germany), bavarian (south bavaria + austria + tirol) franconian (ansbach, franken, nürnberg).

 

[unmerged(39020)]

No it isn't. The appropriate word for the East Latin population north of the Danube at this time is Romanian, as exemplified by the name of Tara Româneasca.
Alexandre

I think you have a terrible missconsepcion about the word "Romanian"
So, the Romanians...actually that's is the translated word into English of the romanian word români...vlach or wallach are not of romanian origin...they were named so after the greeks and the byzantines...so, if you want to follow the romanian ethimology you must use the word Romanian, if you relate to other sources of foreingh origin ypu can use vlach or wallach...Tara Româneasca is the Romanian term for Wallachia...I personally stick to the Romanian principle and there is a very strong reason why I do so... if you say vlach or wallachs you omitt the population from Moldavia , Temes and Torki and also Siebenburgen also known as Transilvania... and this is a wrong thing to do because they are part of the exactlly same people...they speak the same language, have the same faith (that's why some provinces in Hungary must change their faith and nationality : Temes, Feher, Bihar, Maramoros, Seykeyfold) but most important they are binded by the same dream - the drem of unification under a sovereign state , tht's why I also wish to add a new title, even if it never materialized in history untill 1600 under Michel the Brave, that of Kingdom of Romania or to be historically accurate The United Principalities.
You can trust me on my sources because I'm a Romanian and I know my history quite well

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Just one final comment: Your failure to provide any sources, while I have linked to several, shows on whose side the scholarship is.

Actually "my failure" is absent here since I never called myself upon any specific source nor did I delved into discussion with this thus there is no need for me to provinde any source.

I said it before and I'll say it again - Vlachs, Wlachs, Wallachians it's all the same thing. I know very well what the term stands for and how the certain populations were refered as such. This is because Vlachs had a very important role in forming of some South Slavic nations...including my own.

Of course, your mod isn't going to be peer-reviewed by historians or linguists, and you have the right to redefine words, but IMHO mods are stronger when they try to remain accurate.

My mod will and is accurate as posibbly it can be. Romanian is a modern term and will definately not going to find place in it. I suggest you really check some non-Romanian or pro-romanian sites. Historical maps are the best sources.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Alexandre , I couldn't quite understand what is the difference between Vlachs and Wallachians. I personally think they are one and the same.

You are right. There is no difference. Wlach is simply a term especially in Balkan for latin-romanized populations. We had two main groups in the past. Those in the North by Danube in Wallachia(by which the land got it's name= and those in South in northern Greece, Macedonia and northern Albania.

It is also established that Welsh/Wales and Valois has the same root, but it is clear that modern day Romanians very refered as Vlachs or Wallachians...it's the same thing...

off-topic:
Finellach , when is your mod coming out ?

As soon as we get 1.05 patch. I don't want to start now and then do it all over again just because of a new patch. But don't worry, I already made all the nescesarry arrangments and I already planned it all.
In addition of culture revision I also revised Duchies and Kingdoms.
At first the mod will be centered only on 1066 scenario, but I'll complement it with middle and late period as well.

The slavic tribes in mecklenburg and eastern holstein were the obotrites (dont know if thats their correct english translated name). Why just call all slavs between elbe river and polish culture west-slavic?

They were called Abodrites in English. And we do call all those tribes West Slavic. Wendish and West Slavic are the same thing, but Wendish sounds far better.

About the frisians, i think from holstein to frisia all the coast of the north sea should become frisian.

We don't have enough tag and frankly Frisian are too small and too similar to Dutch.

Germans should be split, at least in north and south, or lower and upper germans. I would even suggest to make some flemish (low lands, belgium), saxonian (northern germany west of elbe river, non coast except hamburg), allemani (southwest germany), bavarian (south bavaria + austria + tirol) franconian (ansbach, franken, nürnberg).

And then we could also split Italians in Naplitans, Sicilians, Venetians, Lombards, etc...come on....
First we don't have enough tags, second that would be really unescesarry and it would mess things up.

 

[Alexandre]

Historical maps are the best sources.

I have a whole bunch hanging on my walls. Most of those that cover south-east Europe actually identify Wallachia as "Dacia" (which, IMHO is an anacronism) while the remainder identify it as "Tara Româneasca" which, as I've previously said shows that you are mistaken when you write that

Romanian is a modern term

It just isn't a modern term. It's the traditional name.

Alexandre

 

[unmerged(27913)]

I have a whole bunch hanging on my walls. Most of those that cover south-east Europe actually identify Wallachia as "Dacia" (which, IMHO is an anacronism) while the remainder identify it as "Tara Româneasca" which, as I've previously said shows that you are mistaken when you write that

Well thats your problem. As I said I don't care how they called themselves but how others called them and how they were recognized in "international" affairs and it is clear that they were called Vlachs/Wallachians. Also claiming I am "wrong" when there are obvious objective facts against you won't get you anywhere...

It just isn't a modern term. It's the traditional name.

It's a modern term.

Read these few sites:
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Rumanian/Rumanian.html
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/eceurope/transylv16831790.html

If you type in the Google Vlach and Rumanian/Romanian you will see that in historical documents Vlach was used for Romanians and that designation Romanian came somewhere around 16th century.
So much about this...

 

[unmerged(39020)]

Why can't you just listen to me just for a liitle while...People north of the danube called themselves Romanians since the 8-9th entury when the ethogenesis ended and thus resulted the Romanians...thus as I said it before Romanian is not a traditionally name nor is it a moder name...but closer to the truth is that it is a traditionally name...I stick with the idea that there shoud defenetly be a Romanian culture, because:
1. Romanians are not part of the slav/ south slavic culture
2. it is the way natives refered to them-selves, as Romanians, and never as vlachs , wlachs or other God forsaken name
3. Even from those times there were romanian states, they started from the states of Gelu, Glad and Memumorut in modern day Transilvania (you can relly check that and you can consider me an expert after you do so) and in the 13th century Romanian stetes were established in present day Wallachia and Moldova, by Basarab in wallachia and Bogdan I in Moldavia
P.S. I must say that your dillema in calling the region Wallachia or Tara Romaneasca is pure linqisticall relatated because the natives (the ROMANIANS --- ethnological process finished in the 8-9th century) call their cautry Muntenia which if I were to translated to you it means Land of the Mountains. And I also want to repeat that Wallachia was indeed accepted into Romanian language only because it was used by other nation to refer to Tara Romaneasca/ Muntenia nad it is not of Romanian origin
I also stick to Alexandre in the problem concerning Tara Romanesca... that's the appropriate term for the geographical area at that period of time...

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Ok enough about Romanian issue. They were historically called Vlachs(Wallachians) and they will be refered as such in my mod. If you don't like that you can change it to Romanian when it comes out.

Now please move on some more constructive and important matters...

 

[unmerged(7924)]

Ok enough about Romanian issue. They were historically called Vlachs(Wallachians) and they will be refered as such in my mod. If you don't like that you can change it to Romanian when it comes out.

Now please move on some more constructive and important matters...

You're right, Romanians wasn't called that until after the fall of Constantinople. At this time they were not a part of Byzantium, and as long as the Roman Empire endured (as Byz) they were the only "romans", or "romanians". Byz have several times been called Romania. Vlach is best, althought the term Romanian came to use in late 1400's, thought in a small scale. It spread out to that are due to the fall of Byz to OE, and Wallachia and Moldovia being a part of the Ottoman "province" Rumelia. That name was given to them, while the others became Greeks, Serbs, and whatever.

 

[unmerged(7924)]

P.S. I must say that your dillema in calling the region Wallachia or Tara Romaneasca is pure linqisticall relatated because the natives (the ROMANIANS --- ethnological process finished in the 8-9th century) call their cautry Muntenia which if I were to translated to you it means Land of the Mountains. And I also want to repeat that Wallachia was indeed accepted into Romanian language only because it was used by other nation to refer to Tara Romaneasca/ Muntenia nad it is not of Romanian origin
I also stick to Alexandre in the problem concerning Tara Romanesca... that's the appropriate term for the geographical area at that period of time...

Wallachia is in other words what almost everyone exept themselves, thus the one that should be used. Scots didn't call themselves scots either until later. Norwegians has always called themselves northmen, while everyone else use norwegian. And there's more examples. In this time people in the Byz Empire called themselves "Romans" (or oculd, as citizens), that doesn't mean we should have a roman culture for that area.

Wallachia is a name that derives from the name Vlach. The -ia ending is quite usual when naming an area after a people, like Russia, Prussia and Lithuania.

 

[unmerged(39020)]

Wallachia is in other words what almost everyone exept themselves, thus the one that should be used.

That's not quite a good answer because CK tries to show the predominant culture in a province, and at that time, as I explained earlier the Romanans existed and that is how they should be refered to, not Vlach or Walach whicg is of german origin...
Please go alog with the Romanian version

 

[unmerged(39020)]

By the way the Byzantines refered to themselves as Romaei, that means, inhabitants of Rome, the new/seecond Rome aka Constantinople

 

[unmerged(39020)]

Finnellach.....
Please try to understand that if you call them Vlachs you restrict them to a certin geographical area --- Wallachia where in fact the Romanians are present and make up the entire population of Moldavia, Torki andTemes.... pleeeeseee take this into consideration....it sadeness me to see my own people being disrespected and our history being missinterpreted... thanks

 

[unmerged(39020)]

And another thing....please do not beleve that romans and romanians are the same thing because it is serriously WRONG

 

[Havard]

And another thing... It's possible to edit your previous post if you have corrctions. Posting four consecutive posts in the same topic within just a few minutes is considered bad form and is not allowed.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Finnellach.....
Please try to understand that if you call them Vlachs you restrict them to a certin geographical area --- Wallachia where in fact the Romanians are present and make up the entire population of Moldavia, Torki andTemes.... pleeeeseee take this into consideration....it sadeness me to see my own people being disrespected and our history being missinterpreted... thanks

1. I am not restricting them to anything
2. Vlachs or Wallachians are Romanians
3. Vlachs or Romanians at the starting time period(around 1066) were present only in parts of Transylvania and in Wallachia.
4. There is no disrespect or history being misinterpreted
5. You can change it yourself if you want that so bad.

Now again...I am asking you to move on.