More Cultures?

[unmerged(31117)]

There are several cultures that I feel have been left out of CK and were present in the medieval era.


Flemish (Belgium)
Breton (Brittany)
Moorish (Muslim Spain and Morroco)
North African (Everything from Egypt to Morroco)
Umbrian (Northern Italy)
I'd be in favor of getting rid of South Slavic Culture altogether and replacing it with the following Cultures
Serb
Croat
Bulgarian
Bosnian?

Maybe there should be an Alpine Culture for Switzerland but I guess that may be taking it too far, how exactly did Switzerland come into bieng anyway?

 

[Yakman]

The Swiss were the Helvetii, who were only semi-conquered by the Romans. They rebelled from the Austrians under William Tell [the apple on the head guy] in ????.

North African probably isn't a good idea for a culture. It would probably be better just to call them Moors and stretch them as the ruling class into Iberia and as population in southern Iberia. And maybe include Berber provinces in the Algerian and Moroccan mountians.

Coptic or Egyptian would be a good idea.

Bosnian isn't a good idea, and neither is seperating Croat and Serb. South Slavic should represent all three and maybe the Romanians [although they could be inserted]. Bulgarian is a good idea for another culture.

 

[Drachenfire]

I agree with more cultures that GoblinCookie and Yakman suggest!!!

I saw a coder had altered some of the cultures: for instance gave the Bretons Welsh culture. Thouugh I like this I think Breton- though very very close to Welsh- has enough difference to warrent a seperate culture.

Coptic is a very goiod idea- and wouldnt it be interesting of we could play Etheopia?!!! What if THEY got Crusader happy?

Also.. I wish we could play a Mulsim country too.

 

[Yakman]

Coptic is a very goiod idea- and wouldnt it be interesting of we could play Etheopia?!!! What if THEY got Crusader happy?

Also.. I wish we could play a Mulsim country too.

Coptic is a good idea. That's why I suggested it! Egypt should be mostly Christian anyways--by 1066 the Christians were still a sizeable majority. You CAN play Nubia, but they get STOMPED pretty quickly by the Jolly Green Giant. Ethiopia isn't in the map...

You can play a mohammedan country with the appropriate mods, but it isn't very fun for most of them because you have such enormous tech advantages... although Granada might be interesting...

 

[unmerged(31117)]

I rather keep a seperation between religion and culture, I think that Coptic should be the christian religion of much of that area+Nubia.

As for Egyptian culture itself, I guess there wouldn't be much harm in introducing that into the game, along with North African culture.

I think the way that the Muslim world (with the exception of Persia and Arabic) is so uniformally arabic is a little unrealistic. It's a bit like calling the entire Catholic world Latin beacause Latin is the main language of religion and thus academia.

Saxon culture should be turned into English Culture, since popular English Culture was Anglosaxon culture. People like William the Conquerer and his cronies, shouldn't have English Culture, instead they should be of Norman Culture. It took the English elite centuries to become fully English.

Croat/Serb/Bosnian should be Cultures beacause they were tribes in the Dark Ages and mantained cultural and linguistic differences with oneanother. Bulgarian should definatly be a culture.

Alpine or Helvetii? Culture should be introduced for Switzerland, and the German Culture should probably be split into lower-middle and upper German.

Is Kurdish another culture worth introducing into the game?

 

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Flemish (Belgium)

Flemish are the Dutch.

Breton (Brittany)

Indeed.

Moorish (Muslim Spain and Morroco)
North African (Everything from Egypt to Morroco)

North African and Muslim Spaniards were one and I think the better name woul be Berber.

Umbrian (Northern Italy)

I don't think thats a good idea.
Perhaps if we divide Italian culture but I would't recommend that.

Serb
Croat
Bulgarian

Definately. I think also Slovene should be added in Carniola(Krain) and Carinthia(Karnten).

Bosnian?

Bosnian culture developed with the arrival of Turks and islamization of Croat and Serbian people....thus it was over the CK timeline.

Maybe there should be an Alpine Culture for Switzerland but I guess that may be taking it too far, how exactly did Switzerland come into bieng anyway?

Swiss are Protestant Germans who opposed to habsburgs and united against them. Of course the Italians and French living there didn't also appreciate foreign rule of Habsburgs thus came the Switzerland or 'Federation of Helvetia'.

Btw. I also suggest these cultures:
Wendish
Albanian
Slovak(ian)
Wallachian(Romanian)

 

[unmerged(7924)]

Agree with Vlach, although they didn't come along until later, not 1066 anyway. I *Think* they were somekind of Pecheneg tribe that conquerred the others... thought, they spoke a language derived from latin. The word "romanian" didn't come up until much much later however, a long time after the fall of Byzantium.

As to Croat - Serb, the main difference was that croats were catholic (Latin alphabet), and serbs orthodox (Cyrillic alphabet). That's what split them up in the first place. Serbs being dragged under the byzantines, whie Croatia being dragged over to the Pope's side.

As to berbers/moors, I agree, we strongly need one. Arabs in Spain is... long shot

Bulgarian, absolutly, as they came from the north as "invaders" and settled in modern Bulgaria.

As to albanian, I think they were somekind of "invaders" aswell, but as I see it they were around in this period, and had/has a very special culture, not related to many in the area.

 

[unmerged(9269)]

flemish - dutch

OK, maybe it's because I'm from Antwerp ..

I don't think 'Flemish' is the same as 'Dutch' , that could and should be a seperate culture. If you want to split up up some cultures to Serb/Croat/Bulgarian etc , the Flemish should get their own culture.

Besides, modern-day Netherlands should not be all Dutch. I don't know if the Frisians already have their own culture in CK, but they should.

Just an idea. But if you want to split things up, split it all up. And it still is not clear to me want effect the cultures have in CK.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Agree with Vlach, although they didn't come along until later, not 1066 anyway. I *Think* they were somekind of Pecheneg tribe that conquerred the others... thought, they spoke a language derived from latin. The word "romanian" didn't come up until much much later however, a long time after the fall of Byzantium.

Moladvian and Wallachian tribes were leftovers from the times of Roman Empire. Although they had influxed of Pechenegs they were not Pechengs.
The term Romanian came up much later when the related tribes of Moldavians, Wallchians and related tribes living in Transylvania united.

As to Croat - Serb, the main difference was that croats were catholic (Latin alphabet), and serbs orthodox (Cyrillic alphabet). That's what split them up in the first place. Serbs being dragged under the byzantines, whie Croatia being dragged over to the Pope's side.

Actually this is not correct.
The main difference was much greater than just religion. The language was far more different than it is today(modern Serbian and Croatian are very close due to decades long standardization). Croats also wrote mostly in glagolitic not in Latin alphabet, but they also wrote in variation of cyrillic(also called 'Bosancica' or 'West Cyrillic') with which we have many early documents and even letters to the Pope written in it. Latin was used in communication with Westerners.

As to albanian, I think they were somekind of "invaders" aswell, but as I see it they were around in this period, and had/has a very special culture, not related to many in the area.

Albanians are not invaders. They are the descendants of the old Epirots, mainly islamized but with some retaining their original religion. IMO they are related to Moldavian/Wallachian(Romanian) tribes and are also remantnts of the old romanized culture...mostly peasants and shepards.

Oh and regarding Dutch/Flemish issue. Flemish langauge is a dialect of Dutch. Flemish themselves are Dutch and the division between the Dutch and Flemish came around 1830s when the King of Netherlands issued that Protestantism is the main religion and all religions forbbiden and that Dutch is the main language with no other allowed. This revolted the Catholic Flemish Dutch and also the French part of Netherlands who opposed to Dutch being the only official language.

 

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What effect does culture have in the game?

 

[unmerged(27913)]

What effect does culture have in the game?

Psychological.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

Finnelach is wrong, when the Swiss originally broke away from Hasberg domination and formed their own republic they were as Catholic as any other state in western Europe was as the time. I think they broke away in the late 14th century (1300s) and faught a long war against Habsburg attemts to unite Switzerland with Austria. After more than 50 years of war the Austrians finally abandoned their attemts to bring the renegade republic back into line, and were faught to a standstill. This is represented in Europa by a fixed term casus belli that lasts for the first half of the 15th century.

Eventually Austria was forced to accept Switzerland's independance and independant it seems to have remained ever since.

The Swiss were not originally "protestant germans", many of them spoke German that is true, but they were not protestant as protestantism did not yet exist, originally they were "freedom fighters" fighting against the fuedal system or against serfdom more specifically. Religion did not enter it.

As for an Alpine culture, I though it would be the best way to represent the various unassimilated cultures found in that area, that make up Switzerland aswell as the "traditional liberties" that the Swiss originally rebelled against the Austrians to preserve.

The Bosni/Serbs/Bulgars/Croats/Albani and such were all barbarian dark age tribes that moved to the area from outside. Therefore I feel that giving them all equal status (Including the Bosni) is called for.

 

[unmerged(7924)]

Moladvian and Wallachian tribes were leftovers from the times of Roman Empire. Although they had influxed of Pechenegs they were not Pechengs.
The term Romanian came up much later when the related tribes of Moldavians, Wallchians and related tribes living in Transylvania united.

Yup

Actually this is not correct.
The main difference was much greater than just religion. The language was far more different than it is today(modern Serbian and Croatian are very close due to decades long standardization). Croats also wrote mostly in glagolitic not in Latin alphabet, but they also wrote in variation of cyrillic(also called 'Bosancica' or 'West Cyrillic') with which we have many early documents and even letters to the Pope written in it. Latin was used in communication with Westerners.

Sure, but still too close IMO. Then again, I wouldn't mind more cultures as they don't have that much to say in CK...

Albanians are not invaders. They are the descendants of the old Epirots, mainly islamized but with some retaining their original religion. IMO they are related to Moldavian/Wallachian(Romanian) tribes and are also remantnts of the old romanized culture...mostly peasants and shepards.

They are invaders, but not "recent". I think they invaded the area sometime during roman era. They are in other words, not slavs, and not greeks.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

The trouble is where would you decide where Romanian Culture ends and Pecheneg culture begins.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

Flemish has the advantage of actually being used by people in the medieval period.

The Flemish and Dutch were actually considered seperate peoples in manuscripts from the medieval era, where references to Dutch AND Flemish merchants are mentioned in sources from London.

Likely the divisions were actually greater in the medieval era than they were in 1830.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Finnelach is wrong, when the Swiss originally broke away from Hasberg domination and formed their own republic they were as Catholic as any other state in western Europe was as the time.

Well I read somewhere that they were protestants, but they did fought with Habsburgs(who were Swiss themselves) and won....thats what is important and what was not wrong.

Sure, but still too close IMO. Then again, I wouldn't mind more cultures as they don't have that much to say in CK...

It's not too close. The difference is similar to difference between Norwegian-Swedish-Danish culture or Russian-Ukranian-Polish or Slovak-Czech, etc, etc...
Similar to other mentioned cultures/languages so did Croatian-Slovene-Serbian-Bulgarian also intervened between each other but still each pertaining it's own differences even to this very day.

They are invaders, but not "recent". I think they invaded the area sometime during roman era. They are in other words, not slavs, and not greeks.

They are NOT invaders. They are indigenous population for that area. The only thing that invaded there is muslim religion which strenghtened development of their own separate national awarness. If there for some circumstance they never acceppted Islam they would probably be assimilated into Serbian and Greek corpus.

Flemish has the advantage of actually being used by people in the medieval period.

If you go by that logic you can then add a culture for each Low Province.

The Flemish and Dutch were actually considered seperate peoples in manuscripts from the medieval era, where references to Dutch AND Flemish merchants are mentioned in sources from London.

Thats because they lived in separate countries. The Dutch were united in their province while Flemish were also semi-indpendent under the Spanish-Burgundian line. That doesn't mean they were separate people.

Likely the divisions were actually greater in the medieval era than they were in 1830.

I don't think so. Difference was definately smaller.
Also Dutch is not just synonimous for people of Netherlands but for all inhabitants of Low Countries. The Dutch language currently used in Nethrlands as official is actually a standard. In medieval era every province had it's own specific dialect of this language. Flemish is one of them and this dialect succeeded in surviving to this very day.
Let me remind you that Belgium has three official languages: Dutch(refering to Flemish), French and German.

Btw. as I mentioned it I think there should also be a separate Ukranian culture as well...

 

[Yakman]

I rather keep a seperation between religion and culture, I think that Coptic should be the christian religion of much of that area+Nubia.

As for Egyptian culture itself, I guess there wouldn't be much harm in introducing that into the game, along with North African culture.

I think the way that the Muslim world (with the exception of Persia and Arabic) is so uniformally arabic is a little unrealistic.

Mohammedan cultures should be re-designed as follows:

Moorish nobility ruling Mohammedan Spain. Southern Iberia should be Moorish and Mohammedan, with the north Catholic Castilian/Catalonian/Portugese.

North Africa should be Moorish and Mohammedan up until Egypt.

Egypt should have Egyptian culture, and most of the provinces should be Orthodox.

The Kingdoms of Aleppo, Jerusalem, and Syria should have Syriac culture, with a number of Orthodox provinces spread around.

This would limit Arabs to the Kingdoms of Arabia, Mesopotamia, and Basrah.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

The Flemish and Dutch were <not> states at that time. Both were under foreign rule from outsiders, although were given very high degrees of authonomy and allowed to carry out more or less independant trading from their political masters.

The Cultural differences between medieval nations and regions were even more pronounced than they were today due to lack of communications and lack of communication between different linguistic blocks, which was mostly done in the international languages, which was latin in the Catholic world, Greek in the Orthodox world and Arabic in the Islamic world. This naturally gave native speakers of those languages a great cultural and scientific advantage.

Every major linguistic and cultural difference that exists today between regions and nations was probably far more profound in the middle ages than today due to lack of venacular communication and language cross pollination over cultural boundries.

As for the switzerland thing, you are probably getting mixed up with other events later in swiss history that have to do with the Hasbergs and Catholicism. The Swiss confederation was originally formed in order to oppose the Hasbergs, that is true but it was not protestant beacuse the reformation hadn't happened yet. As I said earlier, it was triggered by Austrian/Hasberg attemts to impose serfdom on the traditionally free swiss peasants in the 14th Century that caused the Swiss Cantons to band together and create the Swiss confederation.

I am very much in favor of getting rid of South Slavic Culture completely turning it into the various cultures already mentioned, and turning Saxon culture into English culture as everyone in England other than the imposed Norman elite and foreign minorities obviously was Saxon at that time. Calling William de Normandie English requires a vast amount of wistful thinking.

 

[Yakman]

I am very much in favor of getting rid of South Slavic Culture completely turning it into the various cultures already mentioned, and turning Saxon culture into English culture

I disagree about removing South Slavic. South Slavic in my mind should incorporate modern Slovenia, Serbia, Bosnia, and Kroatia. After all, they were "Yugoslavia"

I dunno what to do about Bohemia and Moravia though... should there just be a single Bohemian culture? Perhaps someone with more knowledge of the area could contribute their knowledge.

Albanian should be seperated, although they would only occupy a comparitively small area. If not, then just make them South Slavic in the north and Greek in the south.

Bulgarian should be its own culture and something should be done about Romania.

Saxon should just become the mainstay English culture instead of English. Why waste the tag on English when they were all just Saxons anyhow?

 

[unmerged(31117)]

An (Updated list of Cultures that should be to be introduced)

Dutch
Frisian
Flemish
Breton
Alpine
Croatian
Serbian
Bosnian
Albanian
Bulgarian
Slovakian
Moorish
Berber
North African (Everything between Egypt and Morroco?)
Egyptian
Nubian (possibly)
Lower German
Middle German
Upper German
Northern Italian
Southern Italian

The Christian Religion of Egypt should be Coptic, not Orthodox

Cutures that need to be eliminated.
Saxon
West Slavic
German
Italian
German