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Ketchup & friends

Lt. General
Jan 4, 2020
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The distance between the Nuragics and Aquitano-Vasconians was quite high, meaning that their interactions were quite minimal. Therefore, a Nuragic and an Aquitano-Vasconic group make sense.
Not that the Talaiotic culture on the Balearic Islands is currently missing. Once it's implemented, the gap wouldn't look that big.
 

Samitte

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Not that the Talaiotic culture on the Balearic Islands is currently missing. Once it's implemented, the gap wouldn't look that big.
Disregarding linguistics, which is not the best basis for deciding cultures this far back, they are very far apart on other cultural levels. Sardinia and Corsica have been part of the larget Central-East Medditeranean cultural sphere. Sardinia has seen a lof of interaction with Phoenicians, Hellenes and Italics in the last millenia. Corsica too is in the cultural and economic sphere of the Tyrrhenian sea.

The Vascones/Aquitani on the other hand are surrounded by Iberians and Celts, and it is not unlikely their culture is more intertwined with their neighbours then these islanders.
 
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After 1.5: neccessary improvements

Ketchup & friends

Lt. General
Jan 4, 2020
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Dear Paradox devs, please continue working on culture and religion after Season 1.

We have collected a few issues in the setup that are arguably bugs and need to be improved.
As you have implemented some of the suggestions made here, we hope you'll implement these as well.

Problems: Romans and Sabellians
  • Roman culture is too big. In 304 BCE it should be limited to Rome, Latium Vetus and small minorities in other roman-owned tiles. Perhaps a few pops the feudatories.
  • Marsii were a Sabellian tribe NOT Roman as currently in the game.
  • Cures and Amiternum were important Sabinian cities and not conquered by Rome until 290 BC yet they are owned and populated by Rome and Umbria respectively.


Problem: Aternum (related to the above)
This area was never owned by Picentia. Aternum itself was a built by two tribes, Vestinii and Marrucinii.


Problem: Neapolis
It is currently owned by Rome but has a majority Italiote popultion with a few Jewish Hebrew POPs. But historically, there was a significant Samnite population there (which influenced Naples’ allegiance in the Second Samnite war). After the Romans conquered the city they didn’t annex it but forced an alliance. Neapolis continued to mint own coins and wasn’t made a part of the Roman Republic until 90 BC.


Problem: Etrucans
They expanded across most of Italy in previous centuries. At least some Etruscan pops should be still living there, especially in major Etruscan colonies


Problem: Sicily looks weird.
The western half looks very good with a Sicilian minority everywhere, but the eastern coast is 100% Hellenistic (mainly Siceliote). But no Greeks in Morgantina and Kentoripa. Especially the tribesmen are weird, the Greek colonists were urbanized or farmers.


Problems: Apulia and Messapia
Moving their culture to Illyrian group was a good idea, but now they have:

I. Greek military traditions: They’ve been in Italy for centuries (and Illyrians in general need an own set of military traditions).

II. No Greek presence in them. There were Greek colonies on the coast and Greek merchants in the cities.


Problem: Boi and Senones inconsistency

They have Lepontic culture. A Boian culture exists (Boihaemia) and is now in a different culture group. Meanwhile, the Senones have Sennonian culture (Belgic group).


Taulantia
I. The distribution of Taulantii and Epirotes in the actual game do not correspond to what Epirote missions and events suggest. and the border between the two cultures is too clear-cut. After doing some research, it seems it’s indeed wrong.

II. The situation in Taulantia is GREATLY simplified!

This video, the map here and Wikipedia agree: Apollonia wasn’t part of their kingdom. And the Bylliones in Byllis were their subordinates, NOT part of the core realm! Making them a Vassal would solve the Governor issue. (related problem: Taulantia currently has 1 Governor slot for a single tile (Byllis). This seems excessive for a local power.)

But the power of Glaukias extended further than depicted in the game. And, Epidamnos was recently conquered from Macedon (in 312 BC) with the support of local oligarchs. This should be reflected by making Epirote an integrated culture in Taulantia!

III. According to researchers, the Taulantii and Bylliones were bilingual and spoke Greek as well. The tribes further north remained spoke only Illyrian.
  • the Abrian culture is currently unused. It can be used to for the less Hellenised tribes.

IV. Kodrion was inhabited by a Chaonian tirbe (Greek epirotes), but Dimale was Illyrian until hellenized later (started after Pyrrhus annexed it). That’s the opposite of how the game portraits these two tiles!


Aetolian
Problem I: most minors between Aetolia and Boeotia have Boeotian culture. This means they would try to expand into Boeotia and form Boeotian league, but if Aetolia takes this area, they get a new culture.

Historically, Northwest Doric tribes, Locrians and Phoceans inhabited these areas. They:

  • spoke a dialect related to Aetolian
  • eventually joined the Aetolian league but were never part of Boeotia
  • Amphissa and Opus (and Nikaia Locri) were both Locrian, they should have the same culture.

Problem II: Elatea and Thebes can’t form Boeotia because they are monarchies and the decision requires being a republic.

Consequence: making the minors Aetolian will also make them unable to form Boeotia. A new T1 formable is neccesary to replace it: Phokis and Locris seems most reasonable.

Megara&Corinth

Propontic culture makes the proposal of a Megaran culture redundant.

The closest existing culture is Argolian

Good idea.
  • Corinth should also be Argolian then
  • rivalries reflected by being in different provinces requiring different policies.

@Mike6979 proposed making Corinth a free city or feudatory, that’s a good idea.


Lepreon:
Currently with Achaean culture but doesn’t get the decision to form Achaea. Why?
  • The people there considered themselves relatives of the Arkadians.
  • Arcadian heritage would be more useful (neighbours are 2 larger states + Defensive league)
Leperon were ruled by Elis for a long time before independence, a few Aetolian pops could to reflect this.


Propontic culture.
Why are Philippopolis, Beroe and Kabyle propontic? They were established by Philipp II and settled with Macedonians.

It should replace Bithynian for the minors and get the current Bithynian heritage. (details here)

Problem (Inland):
  • The black sea cities rebelled against Lysuimcahus. making them propontic (integrated culture) prevents this.
  • Istros is bosporan, but should have same culture as southern neighbours.
  • Istros and Milet had an agreement recognizing each other’s citizenship. This should be represented with integrated cultures.

Germanic:

Multiple Germanic cultures are unused: they are listed in the game files and it’s obvious which tribes should have these cultures, but they use other cultures instead (e.g Frisia is Saxon instead of Frisian.)

benefits from implementing them:
  • Easier to form Saxonia and Suebia, this buffs the AI.
  • less obvious alliances.
  • more flavour!

Why is Dania Guitonic with some Herulian pops? An own culture seems more appropriate.

Albion:
Ireland is odd. The west coast tribes are missing & some buffs could help them (T1 formables). They're less civilized than the other tribes.
It would be better if the 3 T2 formables (Caledonian Confederacy, Hibernia and Pritania) corresponded to culture groups.


Romans and Sabellians:
  • Change Marsia, the two settlements they claim (Peltunium and Fucens) as well as Carcioli (these 3 tiles were conquered by the Romans just before the start) and all POPs there to Sabellian culture.
  • Change most roman POPs in Campania province and southern Latium (majority in Fregellae and Fundi, a minority in Norba and Circeii) to Sabellian. This will make the claims Samnium gets via event more reasonable in-game.
  • Change all POPs in Cures to Sabellian culture and make it owned by Sabinia (possibly even their capital, but that would change the heritage to Highland.)
  • Change all POPs in Amiternum to Sabellian culture and make it owned by Sabinia.
  • Optional: make Sabinia a Federated Tribe
  • Interamnia should NOT be owned by Sabinia, but a new tag: Praetutium (Sabellian settled tribe, tribuitary or Tribal Vassal of Picenia.

Two Possible solutions: (Implement one of them, whatever you like more)

I. Add 1 new tag (city-state owning 1 tile): Aternum

Should be a Federated Tribe (representing the Marrucini and Vestini).

One of the Major Families ahould be the Asinii who were of Marrucinian origin.

Perhaps the other two clans can be representing the Vestinii and Marrucinii respectively?


II. Split the Aternum tile in two along the river.
  • Make each tile owned by a Settled Tribe: Vestini in the North, Marrucini in the south.
  • the two should be Allied or in a Defensive league.
  • both tile should have ports

Neapolis:
  • Change some POPs in Neapolis to Sabellian culture.
Make Neapolis a city state:

- Italiote primary culture, New Sabellian integrated.

- Either allied to Rome or a client state or Tributary.


Sicily:

Change some POPs across Italy to Etruscan. Some tiles that need a few Etruscan POPs (major Etruscan marketplaces or colonies):

  • Alalia
  • Ostia
  • Irna
  • Sulki
  • Callipolis

Change all tribesmen and some slave and freeman POPs in all Greek-majority territories to Siculian culture. Also, change a few freemen POPs (small minortiy) in Morgantina and Kentoripa to Siceliote to represent Greek settlers.


Apulia and Messapia:
  • Change the military Traditions of Apulia and Messapia to Italian.
  • Make Callipolis and Hydruntum city states with Italiotian culture and majority (keep a Messapian minority in both cities). They should be tributaries of Messapia.
  • add a port to Brundisium, for historical accuracy and to replace Hydruntum.
  • Change several POPs in Barium to Italiotian culture and make Italiotian an integrated culture in Apulia.


Cisalpine gauls:

Change Boi to Boian culture.

Alternatively, create a new culture for Senones in Italy.


Taulantia:
  • Make Epirote an integrated culture in Taulantia.
  • change the 3 existing POPs in Epidamnos from Taulantian to Epirote. Add 1 Taulantian noble POP (representing the Royal court) and 1 or 2 Taulantian tribesmen.
  • Lissos: change the Freeman pop in to Epirote. Add 1 Epirote citizen and 1 Epirote slave (matching the other cities).
  • change all Epirote POPs in Dimalion to Taulantian
  • Change all Taulantian pops in Kodrion to Epirote.
  • Make Apollonia an independent city-state (Oligarchic republic). Should be allied OR in a defensive league with Korkyra. Add a few Taulantian and Epirote tribesmen pops.
  • Change all 7 POPs in Byllis to Taulantian. Make Byllis a settled tribe (tribal vassal of Taulantia).
  • Adjust the Epirote mission to reflect this.
  • Make Abria and Daorsia tribal vassals of Taulantia.
  • Change the culture of Abria, Daorsia and Cavia to Abrian.
  • Add a mini-Antigonid events for Taulantia: if Taulantia doesn’t own Epidamnos, Apollonia AND Lychnidos when Glaukias dies, all the vassals will leave or have to be conquered through war. If Taulantia manages own them, various boons for building a strong state.
  • Not related to culture, but Lychindos should have a fort. Philipp II build it.
  • optional: add an alliance or defensive league between Taulantia and Dardania. (for balance)

Aetolians, Boeotians and Thessalians:
  • Change the primary culture of Delphi, Elatea and Opus from Boeotian to Aetolian.
  • Change all POPs in these three city-states AND Nikaia Lokri from Boeotian to Aetolian.
  • Change a few Aetolian POPs in Lamia, Thaumakoi and Hypata to Thessalian.
  • Add two new T1 formables:
  • Locris: available to Amphissa, Opus and Locri. Requires owning Amphissa, Opus and Nikaia Locri.
  • Phocis: available to Elatea and Delphi. Requirements: owning both towns AND Heraclea Trachinia.
  • Change requirements of Form Boeotia: remove the being a republic requirement, so Thebes becomes able to do it.

Korinth, Megara and Lepreon:
  • Change Megara (primary culture, POPs and chars) from Athenian to Argolian. Change 1 or 2 of the slave POPs in Salamis to Argolian.
  • Change all Achaean POPs and some of the Macedonian freemen in Corinth to Argolian.
  • make Corinth a Feudatory of Macedon with macedonian primary culture and integrated Argolian.
  • change a few Argolian pops on Aigina to Athenian.
  • Change primary culture of Lepreon and most pops there from Achaian to Arkadian. 1 or 2 pops could be changed to Aetolian.

Thrace:
  • Make Ionian integrated in Istros AND bosporan integrated in Milet.
  • Change the Propontic Citizens and Freemen in Philippopolis, Beroe and Kabyle to Macedonian, change all Slaves and Tribesmen there to Odryssian.
  • Change all Propontic POPs on the black sea coast from Tomis to Apollonia Pontike to Bosporan.

Germania:

Implement the unused cultures, Change the culture, pops and chars in:
  • Frisia to Frisian
  • Lemovia to Lemovian
  • Sciria to Helveconian
  • Reudingia and Varinia to Reudingian
  • Rugia to Rugian

Scandinavia:

Add a new culture: Danish

Change the culture, pops and chars in Dania to Danish.


Ireland:

Add the five tribes mentioned by Ptolemy but currently left out:
  • Erdinia
  • Nagnatia
  • Autinia
  • Gangania
  • Velaboria
change the names of the provinces in Ireland: Instead of cardinal directions, use the Latin names of the four provinces of Ireland
  • Hibernia Meridionalis: Momonia
  • Hibernia Occidentalis: Connacia
  • Hibernia Orientalis: Lagenia
  • Hibernia Septentrionalis: Ultonia
And make them T1 formables (Requirements: Hibernian culture, owning the entire province)

Scotland:
Create new Caledonian culture group consisting of Caledonian, Damnonian, Taexalian and Votadinian.


Persia:
  • Make Persis a Satarpy of the Seleukids. (as in the Gladio et Sale mod)
  • move Frataraka family to Persis as the rulers
  • instead of Persian culture the Seleucids should start with integrated Median.
  • Change Adiabene from tributary to Satrapy.


Problem: divide Aryan and Pracyan

According to @Trin Tragula it’s:
based around the countries using the eastern indo-aryan court dialects.
but @Will Steel criticised this stating that the difference is negligible.

We’ve tried to find a solution and came up with a possible alternate criterion:

What if the Aryan culture Group is used to represent cultures that were part of the Persian sphere of Influence? Sindhi and Gandhari areas were ruled by the Achaemenids and later Alexander. Dardic, Saurashtran and Vidharban traded with them. And the Maurya empire is a new overlord for them.

meanwhile Pracyan culture group were previously part of the Nanda empire so they’re used to be part or neighbors of a large Indian empire or and had less or no direct contacts with the Persias and Greeks.

consequence: if this divide is applied, Shauraseni and Avanti would probably need to be moved to Pracyan. What about Lankan and Maharashtran?

We would like to know @Will Steel thinks about this.
 
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Panthera_Tigris

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but @Will Steel criticised this stating that the difference is negligible.

We’ve tried to find a solution and came up with a possible alternate criterion:

What if the Aryan culture Group is used to represent cultures that were part of the Persian sphere of Influence? Sindhi and Gandhari areas were ruled by the Achaemenids and later Alexander. Dardic, Saurashtran and Vidharban traded with them. And the Maurya empire is a new overlord for them.

meanwhile Pracyan culture group were previously part of the Nanda empire so they’re used to be part or neighbors of a large Indian empire or and had less or no direct contacts with the Persias and Greeks.

consequence: if this divide is applied, Shauraseni and Avanti would probably need to be moved to Pracyan. What about Lankan and Maharashtran?
I think they should just go back to Aryan and Dravidian like it was. It was perfect based on almost every cultural map of the sub-continent. This third, non-existent culture group just seems like a forced add-on or perhaps an artificial nerf and it makes little sense from a realism perspective.



1.jpg
 
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