More Culture-related ideas for 1.5

[Ketchup & friends]

EDIT: please check this threadmark for the updated proposal after 1.5 release.

In the latest Dev Diary @Trin Tragula announced some very good changes to cultures and culture groups, including many proposals from the community.
However, we think a few more changes should be implemented along with the already announced ones.

Below is a list of these things, including some proposals previously maded by us or other posters (with links to original proposals)

Spoiler: Cultures with no countries and pops

The Pretani culture group features a Pretani culture that doesn’t actually have any pops.

• Proposed solution: when creating Pretannia via decision, change culture to Pretani and assimilate 20 to 25% of pops to the new culture.

Frisian has no pops (and Frisia has Saxon culture).

• Proposed solution: Switch Frisia (and all pops and characters there) to Frisian culture.

A few cultures have pops in unowned settlements but have no countries. They exist just to be assimilated or integrated when these areas are settled by other countries.

• There are no countries with Manavian culture.
• Ingvaeonic, Irminonic and Istvaonic
• Garamantian pops exist in a few coastal settlemenst, but no Garamantic country exists in the game.

Proposed solutions:

• add a Manavian culture country on Manavia (Isle of Man) (most likely settled tribe).
• Create more tags for the Ingvaeonic, Irminonic and Istvaonic cultures. This would also fill the huge empty spaces in Central Europe a bit.
• Extend the map somewhat in Libya. Add some settlements and the city of Garama in the currently impassable parts of the Sahara and create a Garamantian kingdom there (monarchy, or perhaps a federated tribe)

Spoiler: Needed new cultures and culture group

(We’ve already proposed or backed up many of these changes before)

Hellenistic group:

• Megaran: In Megara, possibly also in Byzantion and Chalkedon (these cities were founded by Megaran settlers). Reason: currently Megara has Athenian culture, but the people there spoke a very different dialect (Doric in Megara, Attic in Athens) and were long-time rivals of Athens. Megara should therefore have an own culture. (originally proposed here)
• Doric: Make it the primary culture in Kos, Knidos, Halikaranssos and Rhodes and change a majority of Ionian and Aegean pops in these countries to Doric ( a few freemen and slave pops should remain Ionian and Aegean and Cretan to represent recent immigrants, merchants, mercenaries etc). Reason: The Greek territories and countries in Caria Litoralis have either Ionian or Agean culture. However, Doric Greeks, who maintained a distinct identity from their neighbours, lived in the area. As different culture has a modifier on diplomatic relationships and willingness to trade, the absence of a unique, common culture distorts the relationship the countries should have. (originally proposed here)

Caucasian group:

Proposed in @pengoyo 's thread on Caucasian and Anatolian Culture Groups.

• Heniochian

  Now there isn't any solid evidence, but the Heniochi in the northwest Caucus on the shores of the black sea are possibly the ancestors of the modern Abkhaz people, a Northwest Caucasian people (in game there is Heniochia, but its culture is Colchian). I think adding the Heniochian as a culture within the Caucasian culture group would be nice nod to this and would add one more culture to the Caucasian culture group (the Caucasian culture group wouldn't be the smallest culture group in IR, but it is below average). I'd recommend all the major families of Heniochia and all the Colchian pops in the province of Abasgoi (which contains Heniochia) be changed into Heniochian.

• Khaldian

  I would split Colchian up even more. Along the Rioni, Colchians proper, north of there the Suanians, the Henochians in the north-west along the coast, and the Khaldians (combining the Tzannoi, Khalybes, Tibarenians, and others) along the coast and in the mountains to the south, til about Polemonion.

A Scandinavian culture group

As many other large culture groups will be split in 1.5, We think a new Scandinavian culture group should be split off from the Germanic group.
There were some notable differences between the two groups in the time the game is set (see this map).

Gutoni, Herulian, Raumarcian, Rugian, and Suioni would be part of the new culture group. Possibly also Cimbrian and Teutonian, but these two may stay in the Germanic group.

Spoiler: Charcters with wrong culture

• Phthia Menid (Mother of Pyrrhus) should be Thessalian. Currently she is depicted as Epirote, but this is wrong. Reason: Her father was Menon IV of Pharsalus, a ruler of Pharsalus in Thessaly. King Aeacides of Epirus married her in order to cement an alliance between Epirus and Thessaly in the Lamian war.
• Olympias Aiakidai (deceased mother of Alexander the Great) should be Epirote. Currently she has Macedonian culture but she was a member of the Epirote Aiakidai family and moved to Macedon as only when she married Philipp II in a politically arranged marriage.

Spoiler: Messapians

It is currently in the Italic group, but should be moved to Illyrian. The Messapians migrated to Italy from Illyria and spoke an Illyrian language.

If Messapia or Apulia manage to survive and interact with Illyrian tribes (Diplomacy or Conquest), they should get the bonus for same culture group and have better relations with them than Rome or any other Italic nation.

Messapia and Apulia should keep Italian military traditions and Italian gods to represent them integrating themselves in Italy.

Spoiler: Name changes

I. The name of the Pre-Indo-European culture group is anachronistic. That’s how modern scholars call them, but a different name would have been used by contemporaries.

As culture group names are used in-game (in events, diplomacy etc.), it should be renamed

• perhaps Native European or Paleoeuropean?

II. Since multiple Greek countries besides Massalia have Massalian culture, it seems more appropriate to rename it Phocaean. The mission tree for them emphasizes their Phocaean ancestry.

Spoiler: Fix cultures in Spain and Sri Lanka

Multiple countries in these Areas have a wrong culture or religion. Other people have made good proposals how to fix these areas:

• About Iberia and its cultures (Suggestions) (@Vityviktor )
• Gymnaesia/Balearic rework (@Ebusitanus )
• Vijayas of Anuradhapura should be Lankan, not Tamil (@Lewa263 )

Dear devs, please implement their proposals.

We encourage everyone to post additional suggestsions in the comments!

We have a few more suggestions for the next patch (some of them overlapping with the ones posted here).

 

[Ketchup & friends]

The distance between the Nuragics and Aquitano-Vasconians was quite high, meaning that their interactions were quite minimal. Therefore, a Nuragic and an Aquitano-Vasconic group make sense.

Not that the Talaiotic culture on the Balearic Islands is currently missing. Once it's implemented, the gap wouldn't look that big.

 

[Samitte]

Not that the Talaiotic culture on the Balearic Islands is currently missing. Once it's implemented, the gap wouldn't look that big.

Disregarding linguistics, which is not the best basis for deciding cultures this far back, they are very far apart on other cultural levels. Sardinia and Corsica have been part of the larget Central-East Medditeranean cultural sphere. Sardinia has seen a lof of interaction with Phoenicians, Hellenes and Italics in the last millenia. Corsica too is in the cultural and economic sphere of the Tyrrhenian sea.

The Vascones/Aquitani on the other hand are surrounded by Iberians and Celts, and it is not unlikely their culture is more intertwined with their neighbours then these islanders.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Dear Paradox devs, please continue working on culture and religion after Season 1.

We have collected a few issues in the setup that are arguably bugs and need to be improved.
As you have implemented some of the suggestions made here, we hope you'll implement these as well.

Spoiler: current problems (Reason to implement everything below)

Problems: Romans and Sabellians

• Roman culture is too big. In 304 BCE it should be limited to Rome, Latium Vetus and small minorities in other roman-owned tiles. Perhaps a few pops the feudatories.
• Marsii were a Sabellian tribe NOT Roman as currently in the game.
• Cures and Amiternum were important Sabinian cities and not conquered by Rome until 290 BC yet they are owned and populated by Rome and Umbria respectively.

Problem: Aternum (related to the above)
This area was never owned by Picentia. Aternum itself was a built by two tribes, Vestinii and Marrucinii.


Problem: Neapolis
It is currently owned by Rome but has a majority Italiote popultion with a few Jewish Hebrew POPs. But historically, there was a significant Samnite population there (which influenced Naples’ allegiance in the Second Samnite war). After the Romans conquered the city they didn’t annex it but forced an alliance. Neapolis continued to mint own coins and wasn’t made a part of the Roman Republic until 90 BC.


Problem: Etrucans
They expanded across most of Italy in previous centuries. At least some Etruscan pops should be still living there, especially in major Etruscan colonies


Problem: Sicily looks weird.
The western half looks very good with a Sicilian minority everywhere, but the eastern coast is 100% Hellenistic (mainly Siceliote). But no Greeks in Morgantina and Kentoripa. Especially the tribesmen are weird, the Greek colonists were urbanized or farmers.


Problems: Apulia and Messapia
Moving their culture to Illyrian group was a good idea, but now they have:

I. Greek military traditions: They’ve been in Italy for centuries (and Illyrians in general need an own set of military traditions).

II. No Greek presence in them. There were Greek colonies on the coast and Greek merchants in the cities.


Problem: Boi and Senones inconsistency

They have Lepontic culture. A Boian culture exists (Boihaemia) and is now in a different culture group. Meanwhile, the Senones have Sennonian culture (Belgic group).


Taulantia
I. The distribution of Taulantii and Epirotes in the actual game do not correspond to what Epirote missions and events suggest. and the border between the two cultures is too clear-cut. After doing some research, it seems it’s indeed wrong.

II. The situation in Taulantia is GREATLY simplified!

This video, the map here and Wikipedia agree: Apollonia wasn’t part of their kingdom. And the Bylliones in Byllis were their subordinates, NOT part of the core realm! Making them a Vassal would solve the Governor issue. (related problem: Taulantia currently has 1 Governor slot for a single tile (Byllis). This seems excessive for a local power.)

But the power of Glaukias extended further than depicted in the game. And, Epidamnos was recently conquered from Macedon (in 312 BC) with the support of local oligarchs. This should be reflected by making Epirote an integrated culture in Taulantia!

III. According to researchers, the Taulantii and Bylliones were bilingual and spoke Greek as well. The tribes further north remained spoke only Illyrian.

• the Abrian culture is currently unused. It can be used to for the less Hellenised tribes.

IV. Kodrion was inhabited by a Chaonian tirbe (Greek epirotes), but Dimale was Illyrian until hellenized later (started after Pyrrhus annexed it). That’s the opposite of how the game portraits these two tiles!


Aetolian
Problem I: most minors between Aetolia and Boeotia have Boeotian culture. This means they would try to expand into Boeotia and form Boeotian league, but if Aetolia takes this area, they get a new culture.

Historically, Northwest Doric tribes, Locrians and Phoceans inhabited these areas. They:

• spoke a dialect related to Aetolian
• eventually joined the Aetolian league but were never part of Boeotia
• Amphissa and Opus (and Nikaia Locri) were both Locrian, they should have the same culture.

Problem II: Elatea and Thebes can’t form Boeotia because they are monarchies and the decision requires being a republic.

Consequence: making the minors Aetolian will also make them unable to form Boeotia. A new T1 formable is neccesary to replace it: Phokis and Locris seems most reasonable.

Megara&Corinth

Propontic culture makes the proposal of a Megaran culture redundant.

The closest existing culture is Argolian

Good idea.

• Corinth should also be Argolian then
• rivalries reflected by being in different provinces requiring different policies.

@Mike6979 proposed making Corinth a free city or feudatory, that’s a good idea.


Lepreon:
Currently with Achaean culture but doesn’t get the decision to form Achaea. Why?

• The people there considered themselves relatives of the Arkadians.
• Arcadian heritage would be more useful (neighbours are 2 larger states + Defensive league)

Leperon were ruled by Elis for a long time before independence, a few Aetolian pops could to reflect this.


Propontic culture.
Why are Philippopolis, Beroe and Kabyle propontic? They were established by Philipp II and settled with Macedonians.

It should replace Bithynian for the minors and get the current Bithynian heritage. (details here)

Problem (Inland):

• The black sea cities rebelled against Lysuimcahus. making them propontic (integrated culture) prevents this.
• Istros is bosporan, but should have same culture as southern neighbours.
• Istros and Milet had an agreement recognizing each other’s citizenship. This should be represented with integrated cultures.

Germanic:

Multiple Germanic cultures are unused: they are listed in the game files and it’s obvious which tribes should have these cultures, but they use other cultures instead (e.g Frisia is Saxon instead of Frisian.)

benefits from implementing them:

• Easier to form Saxonia and Suebia, this buffs the AI.
• less obvious alliances.
• more flavour!

Why is Dania Guitonic with some Herulian pops? An own culture seems more appropriate.

Albion:
Ireland is odd. The west coast tribes are missing & some buffs could help them (T1 formables). They're less civilized than the other tribes.
It would be better if the 3 T2 formables (Caledonian Confederacy, Hibernia and Pritania) corresponded to culture groups.

Romans and Sabellians:

• Change Marsia, the two settlements they claim (Peltunium and Fucens) as well as Carcioli (these 3 tiles were conquered by the Romans just before the start) and all POPs there to Sabellian culture.
• Change most roman POPs in Campania province and southern Latium (majority in Fregellae and Fundi, a minority in Norba and Circeii) to Sabellian. This will make the claims Samnium gets via event more reasonable in-game.
• Change all POPs in Cures to Sabellian culture and make it owned by Sabinia (possibly even their capital, but that would change the heritage to Highland.)
• Change all POPs in Amiternum to Sabellian culture and make it owned by Sabinia.
• Optional: make Sabinia a Federated Tribe
• Interamnia should NOT be owned by Sabinia, but a new tag: Praetutium (Sabellian settled tribe, tribuitary or Tribal Vassal of Picenia.

Two Possible solutions: (Implement one of them, whatever you like more)

I. Add 1 new tag (city-state owning 1 tile): Aternum

Should be a Federated Tribe (representing the Marrucini and Vestini).

One of the Major Families ahould be the Asinii who were of Marrucinian origin.

Perhaps the other two clans can be representing the Vestinii and Marrucinii respectively?


II. Split the Aternum tile in two along the river.

• Make each tile owned by a Settled Tribe: Vestini in the North, Marrucini in the south.
• the two should be Allied or in a Defensive league.
• both tile should have ports

Neapolis:

• Change some POPs in Neapolis to Sabellian culture.

Make Neapolis a city state:

- Italiote primary culture, New Sabellian integrated.

- Either allied to Rome or a client state or Tributary.


Sicily:

Change some POPs across Italy to Etruscan. Some tiles that need a few Etruscan POPs (major Etruscan marketplaces or colonies):

• Alalia
• Ostia
• Irna
• Sulki
• Callipolis

Change all tribesmen and some slave and freeman POPs in all Greek-majority territories to Siculian culture. Also, change a few freemen POPs (small minortiy) in Morgantina and Kentoripa to Siceliote to represent Greek settlers.


Apulia and Messapia:

• Change the military Traditions of Apulia and Messapia to Italian.
• Make Callipolis and Hydruntum city states with Italiotian culture and majority (keep a Messapian minority in both cities). They should be tributaries of Messapia.
• add a port to Brundisium, for historical accuracy and to replace Hydruntum.
• Change several POPs in Barium to Italiotian culture and make Italiotian an integrated culture in Apulia.

Cisalpine gauls:

Change Boi to Boian culture.

Alternatively, create a new culture for Senones in Italy.


Taulantia:

• Make Epirote an integrated culture in Taulantia.
• change the 3 existing POPs in Epidamnos from Taulantian to Epirote. Add 1 Taulantian noble POP (representing the Royal court) and 1 or 2 Taulantian tribesmen.
• Lissos: change the Freeman pop in to Epirote. Add 1 Epirote citizen and 1 Epirote slave (matching the other cities).
• change all Epirote POPs in Dimalion to Taulantian
• Change all Taulantian pops in Kodrion to Epirote.
• Make Apollonia an independent city-state (Oligarchic republic). Should be allied OR in a defensive league with Korkyra. Add a few Taulantian and Epirote tribesmen pops.
• Change all 7 POPs in Byllis to Taulantian. Make Byllis a settled tribe (tribal vassal of Taulantia).
• Adjust the Epirote mission to reflect this.
• Make Abria and Daorsia tribal vassals of Taulantia.
• Change the culture of Abria, Daorsia and Cavia to Abrian.
• Add a mini-Antigonid events for Taulantia: if Taulantia doesn’t own Epidamnos, Apollonia AND Lychnidos when Glaukias dies, all the vassals will leave or have to be conquered through war. If Taulantia manages own them, various boons for building a strong state.
• Not related to culture, but Lychindos should have a fort. Philipp II build it.
• optional: add an alliance or defensive league between Taulantia and Dardania. (for balance)

Aetolians, Boeotians and Thessalians:

• Change the primary culture of Delphi, Elatea and Opus from Boeotian to Aetolian.
• Change all POPs in these three city-states AND Nikaia Lokri from Boeotian to Aetolian.
• Change a few Aetolian POPs in Lamia, Thaumakoi and Hypata to Thessalian.
• Add two new T1 formables:
• Locris: available to Amphissa, Opus and Locri. Requires owning Amphissa, Opus and Nikaia Locri.
• Phocis: available to Elatea and Delphi. Requirements: owning both towns AND Heraclea Trachinia.
• Change requirements of Form Boeotia: remove the being a republic requirement, so Thebes becomes able to do it.

Korinth, Megara and Lepreon:

• Change Megara (primary culture, POPs and chars) from Athenian to Argolian. Change 1 or 2 of the slave POPs in Salamis to Argolian.
• Change all Achaean POPs and some of the Macedonian freemen in Corinth to Argolian.
• make Corinth a Feudatory of Macedon with macedonian primary culture and integrated Argolian.
• change a few Argolian pops on Aigina to Athenian.
• Change primary culture of Lepreon and most pops there from Achaian to Arkadian. 1 or 2 pops could be changed to Aetolian.

Thrace:

• Make Ionian integrated in Istros AND bosporan integrated in Milet.
• Change the Propontic Citizens and Freemen in Philippopolis, Beroe and Kabyle to Macedonian, change all Slaves and Tribesmen there to Odryssian.
• Change all Propontic POPs on the black sea coast from Tomis to Apollonia Pontike to Bosporan.

Germania:

Implement the unused cultures, Change the culture, pops and chars in:

• Frisia to Frisian
• Lemovia to Lemovian
• Sciria to Helveconian
• Reudingia and Varinia to Reudingian
• Rugia to Rugian

Scandinavia:

Add a new culture: Danish

Change the culture, pops and chars in Dania to Danish.


Ireland:

Add the five tribes mentioned by Ptolemy but currently left out:

• Erdinia
• Nagnatia
• Autinia
• Gangania
• Velaboria

change the names of the provinces in Ireland: Instead of cardinal directions, use the Latin names of the four provinces of Ireland

• Hibernia Meridionalis: Momonia
• Hibernia Occidentalis: Connacia
• Hibernia Orientalis: Lagenia
• Hibernia Septentrionalis: Ultonia

And make them T1 formables (Requirements: Hibernian culture, owning the entire province)

Scotland:
Create new Caledonian culture group consisting of Caledonian, Damnonian, Taexalian and Votadinian.


Persia:

• Make Persis a Satarpy of the Seleukids. (as in the Gladio et Sale mod)
• move Frataraka family to Persis as the rulers
• instead of Persian culture the Seleucids should start with integrated Median.
• Change Adiabene from tributary to Satrapy.

Spoiler: India (to be discussed)

Problem: divide Aryan and Pracyan

According to @Trin Tragula it’s:

based around the countries using the eastern indo-aryan court dialects.

but @Will Steel criticised this stating that the difference is negligible.

We’ve tried to find a solution and came up with a possible alternate criterion:

What if the Aryan culture Group is used to represent cultures that were part of the Persian sphere of Influence? Sindhi and Gandhari areas were ruled by the Achaemenids and later Alexander. Dardic, Saurashtran and Vidharban traded with them. And the Maurya empire is a new overlord for them.

meanwhile Pracyan culture group were previously part of the Nanda empire so they’re used to be part or neighbors of a large Indian empire or and had less or no direct contacts with the Persias and Greeks.

consequence: if this divide is applied, Shauraseni and Avanti would probably need to be moved to Pracyan. What about Lankan and Maharashtran?

We would like to know @Will Steel thinks about this.

 

[Quantum_AI]

but @Will Steel criticised this stating that the difference is negligible.

We’ve tried to find a solution and came up with a possible alternate criterion:

What if the Aryan culture Group is used to represent cultures that were part of the Persian sphere of Influence? Sindhi and Gandhari areas were ruled by the Achaemenids and later Alexander. Dardic, Saurashtran and Vidharban traded with them. And the Maurya empire is a new overlord for them.

meanwhile Pracyan culture group were previously part of the Nanda empire so they’re used to be part or neighbors of a large Indian empire or and had less or no direct contacts with the Persias and Greeks.

consequence: if this divide is applied, Shauraseni and Avanti would probably need to be moved to Pracyan. What about Lankan and Maharashtran?

I think they should just go back to Aryan and Dravidian like it was. It was perfect based on almost every cultural map of the sub-continent. This third, non-existent culture group just seems like a forced add-on or perhaps an artificial nerf and it makes little sense from a realism perspective.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

While the devs implemented a few of the suggestions proposed above, most of them didn't make it into 2.0

with the new levy system, an accurate cultural setup became more important than ever, dear @Chopmist, please implement this in the next patch (reasons same as before, or explained in the linked threads):


Romans and Sabellians:

• cut the pop numbers in Rome (Tag) to 1/2 of the current numbers.
• downgrade some other cities in Latium to settlements
• Change Marsia, the two settlements they claim (Peltunium and Fucens) as well as Carcioli (these 3 tiles were conquered by the Romans just before the start) and all POPs there to Sabellian culture.
• Change most roman POPs in Campania province and southern Latium (majority in Fregellae and Fundi, a minority in Norba and Circeii) to Sabellian. This will make the claims Samnium gets via event more reasonable in-game.
• Change all POPs in Cures to Sabellian culture and make it owned by Sabinia (possibly even their capital, but that would change the heritage to Highland.)
• Change all POPs in Amiternum to Sabellian culture and make it owned by Sabinia.
• Optional: make Sabinia a Federated Tribe
• Interamnia should NOT be owned by Sabinia, but a new tag: Praetutium (Sabellian settled tribe, tribuitary or Tribal Vassal of Picenia.
• make Daunia a client state of Rome instead of being owned directly.

Two Possible solutions: (Implement one of them, whatever you like more)

I. Add 1 new tag (city-state owning 1 tile): Aternum

Should be a Federated Tribe (representing the Marrucini and Vestini).

One of the Major Families ahould be the Asinii who were of Marrucinian origin.

Perhaps the other two clans can be representing the Vestinii and Marrucinii respectively?


II. Split the Aternum tile in two along the river.

• Make each tile owned by a Settled Tribe: Vestini in the North, Marrucini in the south.
• the two should be Allied or in a Defensive league.
• both tile should have ports

Neapolis:

• Change some POPs in Neapolis to Sabellian culture.

Make Neapolis a city state:

- Italiote primary culture, New Sabellian integrated.

- Either allied to Rome or a client state or Tributary.


Sicily:

Change some POPs across Italy to Etruscan. Some tiles that need a few Etruscan POPs (major Etruscan marketplaces or colonies):

• Alalia
• Ostia
• Irna
• Sulki
• Callipolis

Change all tribesmen and some slave and freeman POPs in all Greek-majority territories to Siculian culture. Also, change a few freemen POPs (small minortiy) in Morgantina and Kentoripa to Siceliote to represent Greek settlers.


Italy:

• Make Callipolis and Hydruntum city states with Italiotian culture and majority (keep a Messapian minority in both cities). They should be tributaries of Messapia.
• Change several POPs in Barium to Italiotian culture and make Italiotian an integrated culture in Apulia.
• Change Boi to Boian culture.
• Alternatively, create a new culture for Senones in Italy.
  
  
  

Taulantia:

• Make Epirote an integrated culture in Taulantia.
• Lissos: change the Freeman pop in to Epirote. Add 1 Epirote citizen and 1 Epirote slave (matching the other cities).
• change all Epirote POPs in Dimalion to Taulantian
• Change all Taulantian pops in Kodrion to Epirote.
• Change all 7 POPs in Byllis to Taulantian. Make Byllis a settled tribe (tribal vassal of Taulantia).
• Make Abria and Daorsia tribal vassals of Taulantia.
• Change the culture of Abria, Daorsia and Cavia to Abrian.
• Add a mini-Antigonid events for Taulantia: if Taulantia doesn’t own Epidamnos, Apollonia AND Lychnidos when Glaukias dies, all the vassals will leave or have to be conquered through war. If Taulantia manages own them, various boons for building a strong state.

optional: add an alliance or defensive league between Taulantia and Dardania. (for balance)





Aetolians, Boeotians and Thessalians:

• Change the primary culture of Delphi, Elatea and Opus from Boeotian to Aetolian.
• Change all POPs in these three city-states AND Nikaia Lokri from Boeotian to Aetolian.
• Change a few Aetolian POPs in Lamia, Thaumakoi and Hypata to Thessalian.
• Add two new T1 formables:
• Locris: available to Amphissa, Opus and Locri. Requires owning Amphissa, Opus and Nikaia Locri.
• Phocis: available to Elatea and Delphi. Requirements: owning both towns AND Heraclea Trachinia.
• Change requirements of Form Boeotia: remove the being a republic requirement, so Thebes becomes able to do it.

Korinth, Attica and Lepreon:

• Change Megara (primary culture, POPs and chars) from Athenian to Argolian. Change 1 or 2 of the slave POPs in Salamis to Argolian.
• Change all Achaean POPs and some of the Macedonian freemen in Corinth to Argolian.
• make Corinth a Feudatory of Macedon with Macedonian primary culture and integrated Argolian.
• change a few Argolian pops on Aigina to Athenian.
• Change primary culture of Lepreon and most pops there from Achaian to Arkadian. 1 or 2 pops could be changed to Aetolian.
• Increase the number of POPs in Athens as suggested by @Arthrodira
• some of the new slave pops should be heptadic skythians, zoroasrian persians and hellenic or zalmoxian odryssians.

Istros and Milet:

• Add 1 or 2 Ionian POPs in Istros
• Add 1 or 2 Bosporan POPs in Milet
• Make Ionian integrated in Istros AND bosporan integrated in Milet.

Porpontic Heritage:

Fix and rename the so-called Bithynian heritage (tailor-made for the Propontic cities). It should be tied to the Propontic culture instead of Bithynian after the 2.0 changes.




Germania:

Implement the unused cultures, Change the culture, pops and chars in:

• Frisia to Frisian
• Lemovia to Lemovian
• Sciria to Helveconian
• Reudingia and Varinia to Reudingian
• Rugia to Rugian

Scandinavia:

Add a new culture: Danish

Change the culture, pops and chars in Dania to Danish.


Ireland:

Add the five tribes mentioned by Ptolemy but currently left out:

• Erdinia
• Nagnatia
• Autinia
• Gangania
• Velaboria

change the names of the provinces in Ireland: Instead of cardinal directions, use the Latin names of the four provinces of Ireland

• Hibernia Meridionalis: Momonia
• Hibernia Occidentalis: Connacia
• Hibernia Orientalis: Lagenia
• Hibernia Septentrionalis: Ultonia

And make them T1 formables (Requirements: Hibernian culture, owning the entire province)

Scotland:
Create new Caledonian culture group consisting of Caledonian, Damnonian, Taexalian and Votadinian.


Seleukids:

• double the pop numbers in Mesopotamia
• Reduce the number of macedonian POPs.
• upgrade some tiles to make space for them, e.g. Babylon from city to metropolis)
• Make Persis a Satarpy of the Seleukids. (as in the Gladio et Sale mod)
• move Frataraka family to Persis as the rulers
• instead of Persian culture the Seleucids should start with integrated Median.

Other:

• Implement changes in the caucasus as proposed by @Samitte here and @pengoyo here
• fix the Mithridaties family culture (Persian instead of Median) as suggested by @Saman Wilson
• Greatly reduce the number of Macedonians and Jews outside their homelands.
• finish the Asia changes (implement @Samitte ‘s latest proposals)

 

[Palando]

Actually, Alalia should be majorly Etruscan as discussed here https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/the-etruscans-and-alalia-aleria-corsica.1195336/

 

[Palando]

Germania:

Implement the unused cultures, Change the culture, pops and chars in:

• Frisia to Frisian
• Lemovia to Lemovian
• Sciria to Helveconian
• Reudingia and Varinia to Reudingian
• Rugia to Rugian

Scandinavia:

Add a new culture: Danish

Change the culture, pops and chars in Dania to Danish

As it stands, the barbarian cultures are far too granular, so I'd rather see some combined. Unused cultures can be just deleted from the file

There shouldn't even be Dania ... the whole setup of peninsular Scandinavia is based on an account from 550 AD, which basically is closer to the earliest start date of CK II. It even contradicts Jordanes who gave us this account, as Jordanes mentions that the name Heruls is derived from the tribes' location near the Sea of Azov ...

There are three different accounts of this region from Plinius, Tacitus and Ptolemaios but they all have different tribes. In fact, it would've been better if that region had been left for colonisation. This is not an option for a Swedish development studio, I guess.
The accounts can be patched together, but it's not optimal. I tried this in my mod. Regardless of that neither of them mentions Danes, only Ptolemaios has Dauciones, which could become Danciones if you assume that the u is a spelling error.

Burgundians would also be a part of the Vandals, then. To which they rightfully belong

For more info, please refer to my old thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-and-tribes-of-the-ancient-germanics.1161206/

 

[Autonomous]

Scotland:
Create new Caledonian culture group consisting of Caledonian, Damnonian, Taexalian and Votadinian.

...why?

Even if we want to project the post-Roman division between the Picts and the Brythons back onto the pre-Roman period (which would seem to me a rather dubious proposition, that division reflecting the political divisions of the Roman period), the Damnonii and the Votadini would very definitely fall into the southern group.

I'm not even convinced the Pretani/Gaelic division is well-justified (though: justified by what? Evidence is not exactly rich)

 

[Ketchup & friends]

There shouldn't even be Dania ...

The accounts can be patched together, but it's not optimal. I tried this in my mod. Regardless of that neither of them mentions Danes, only Ptolemaios has Dauciones, which could become Danciones if you assume that the u is a spelling error.

OK, replace Dania with Dancionia as in your proposal.

Your proposal looks excellent. It's a pity @Trin Tragula and @Arheo didn't react.

...why?

Even if we want to project the post-Roman division between the Picts and the Brythons back onto the pre-Roman period (which would seem to me a rather dubious proposition, that division reflecting the political divisions of the Roman period), the Damnonii and the Votadini would very definitely fall into the southern group.

I'm not even convinced the Pretani/Gaelic division is well-justified (though: justified by what? Evidence is not exactly rich)

Gameplay reasons, same as before:

Albion:
Ireland is odd. The west coast tribes are missing & some buffs could help them (T1 formables). They're less civilized than the other tribes.
It would be better if the 3 T2 formables (Caledonian Confederacy, Hibernia and Pritania) corresponded to culture groups.

An alternative option would be downgrading Caledonian Confederacy to a Tier I formable and add more TI formables in Britain.
We decided that splitting the Pritannian culture group would be easier (Since the devs have added more and more culture groups).

 

[Autonomous]

Gameplay reasons, same as before:

An alternative option would be downgrading Caledonian Confederacy to a Tier I formable and add more TI formables in Britain.
We decided that splitting the Pritannian culture group would be easier (Since the devs have added more and more culture groups).

Okay, well, to this I have to ask... what gameplay concerns are being served by making T2 formables align with culture groups? I'm not aware of any, but maybe I've missed something.

Whatever it is, if that really is a problem, I'd advocate for cutting the CC entirely, and extending Pretannia to cover the whole island. The Caledonii are just one tribe among several in the north at this point- I don't think the Romans begin applying the name to the entire area until after the end of the game.

 

[Palando]

Okay, well, to this I have to ask... what gameplay concerns are being served by making T2 formables align with culture groups? I'm not aware of any, but maybe I've missed something.

Whatever it is, if that really is a problem, I'd advocate for cutting the CC entirely, and extending Pretannia to cover the whole island. The Caledonii are just one tribe among several in the north at this point- I don't think the Romans begin applying the name to the entire area until after the end of the game.

Pytheas calls the whole island up to Orkney Britain, so there really shouldn't be another culture group for the Caledonians.

I also strongly advocate for merging the purported Goidelic group into the British one, as the Goidelic-Brythonic split did not happen until well after the Romans conquered their way up to Hadrian's Wall.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Okay, well, to this I have to ask... what gameplay concerns are being served by making T2 formables align with culture groups? I'm not aware of any, but maybe I've missed something.

Whatever it is, if that really is a problem, I'd advocate for cutting the CC entirely, and extending Pretannia to cover the whole island. The Caledonii are just one tribe among several in the north at this point- I don't think the Romans begin applying the name to the entire area until after the end of the game.

for gameplay reasons, CC as a T1 formable would help the northern tribes form Pritannia. they have less POPs and civilization value than the southern ones like Icenia or Brigantia.

I also strongly advocate for merging the purported Goidelic group into the British one, as the Goidelic-Brythonic split did not happen until well after the Romans conquered their way up to Hadrian's Wall.

In-game Culture groups are NOT the same as languages.
Considering that the devs clearly want more of them, this is not likely to be implemented.

 

[Palando]

for gameplay reasons, CC as a T1 formable would help the northern tribes form Pritannia. they have less POPs and civilization value than the southern ones like Icenia or Brigantia.


In-game Culture groups are NOT the same as languages.
Considering that the devs clearly want more of them, this is not likely to be implemented.

Language is obviously one factor; but the thing is in general that there's a plethora of small cultures that don't make sense. As in why does southern Sweden have four different cultures or in general why each tribe has a different culture. Some cultures feel like being split into their single composing atoms and this doesn't really work well with the cultural integration mechanic. Why should I integrate a culture that has maybe some 30 to 50 pops, when cultural assimilation will make them all my primary culture in basically no time. You also lose stability and happiness if you integrate cultures, so it's neither worth it in the short term nor in the long term.

Another example is how continental Celtic is split into western and eastern, while the western Celts migrated from the western part to the eastern part in the 4th century BC, so your eastern Celts are western Celts that left Gaul two or three generations before. This doesn't make sense.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Some cultures feel like being split into their single composing atoms and this doesn't really work well with the cultural integration mechanic.

Don't forget that integrating cultures is a later addition. The cultures in the barbarian regions were not reworked in the Menander update.

And having cultures belong to just 1 culture group is kinda restriciting. PDX should change that (along with adding dynamic cultures appearing during the game)

 

[vyshan]

Don't forget that integrating cultures is a later addition. The cultures in the barbarian regions were not reworked in the Menander update.

And having cultures belong to just 1 culture group is kinda restriciting. PDX should change that (along with adding dynamic cultures appearing during the game)

How would being in two different culture groups work in your opinion?

and why dynamic cultures would you like to see?

 

[pengoyo]

How would being in two different culture groups work in your opinion?

One thing I think could be interesting would be to try to model two big influences on culture. One being aspects that a culture has due to inheriting them due to descent from an ancestral culture. The other that cultures get due to contact with other cultures.

The descent could be modeled the way culture groups currently are, by just having cultures belonging to static groups (probably relying heavily on linguistics to determine membership), so these would be for the most part equivalent to the culture groups that are in IR.

Contact could be modeled a couple different ways. The simplest would just be to have another set of culture groups in which membership is based on location (I'll refer to this as the regional group and the descent version as culture group, probably could be given better names). So for example cultures that are primarily Italy could all belong to Italian regional group in addition to the culture group they belong to due to decent. This could be somewhat dynamic, because if a culture moves to a new region, it could change which regional group it belongs to. With this model, to figure out cultural difference penalties, the game would check if two cultures belong to the same regional group and/or culture group.

But a more interesting way for IR might be to try to model the Hellenization or Latinization of various cultures over the time period. For this it might be better, rather than having contact be based directly on region (so no regional groups), instead have a way for a realms to mark one of their subject culture as being influenced by their culture group. So for example any Greek culture realm could "Hellenize" a non-Greek subject culture. This would presumably would reduce any cultural difference penalties between this Hellenized culture and any Greek culture. Plus maybe reduce for Greek realms the cost of cultural conversion or making this Hellenized culture an accepted culture. Finally while I only mentioned Hellenization and Latinization, I think that any culture groups should be able to influence other cultures in this way.

There is probably a more interesting way to model this, but this is just a basic idea of how it might work. Either way, both of these suggestion are about allowing cultures to have a bit more of a complicated relation to other cultures beyond the binary of belong to the same culture group or not.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

How would being in two different culture groups work in your opinion?

we haven't discussed the details yet because a new rework won't happen soon.
The proposals above are supposed to work within the Menender framework.
But @pengoyo made some good points.

and why dynamic cultures would you like to see?

So new cultures (historical like Gallo-Roman or completely new due to a migration from Scandinavia to Tibet or vice versa) could emerge and the devs don't need to script every single possible combo.

 

[teo1901]

can you add tribes of britain such as catuvellauni, atrebates, belgae, regnenses, selgovae, novantae, epidii, lugi, creones, caereni, venicones, vacomagi, smertae, decantae, and the tribes of western ireland ?