More culture mixing, please!

[agustinalarcon]

so some "cultures" in-game are already sort of melting pots already, if you know the history. Andalusian, for instance, can easily be considered a melting pot of Berber, Iberian, and Arabic; Saxon is actually Saxon + Norse (due to the heavy Norse influence in England for the previous few centuries); Turkish in Anatolia is Greek + Turkish; etc.

I don't agree about your example of Andalusian culture. In real history, it was as you say a melting pot of those three cultures. But in-game, it's a subculture from the arab group. So, for people of iberian culture, andalusian are as foreigners as any other arabs (maghreb, etc). So, when (silly me) i moved once my capital to Toledo before it turned castilian, and my first born son turned out to be of andalusian culture, he had a big -18 to all relations with his northern vassals.
There could be perhaps a new culture andalusian_iberic, I don't know.
And for the other melting pots, not the historic ones, but the ones that could happen, I will be more than happy to see them.

 

[agustinalarcon]

Quite a lot of provinces switch to the culture type of their direct ruler in my games, so I don´t think changing anything is all too necessary.

Well, that's exactly the problem in my opinion. Sometimes, yes, provinces should switch to the culture type of their direct ruler. But sometimes, as in the english example, a new melting pot culture should arise.

It would be nice if culture changes were also determined by the provinces culture tech or something, since there were regions like Al-Andalus that didn´t change much after conquest, probably because they were much more advanced than the christian kingdoms.

Yes, that's true.

And, am I the only one to think that, in general, religious and cultural changes happen just too fast in any direction ? Come on, in my last game the whole Poland became Tengri in approximately 100 years after the mongol invasion... I'm not quite sure, I'm not an historian but that does not seem very accurate to me. Tell me please if I'm wrong

 

[agustinalarcon]

Having the other Iberian cultures morph into Andulusian should be easy (it can theoretically happen in vanilla, it just relies upon the standard "switch to liege's culture" events/decisions), but they could easily modify the code so that it becomes more probable if e_spain is formed by a muslim ruler.

The problem being as for now andalusian culture is not an Iberian subculture, but an arab subculture. Well, that's at least what I understand from cultures.txt and from ingame messages. There could be an andalusian_iberian culture perhaps ?

 

[ziamatt]

I would like to see a system the creates new cultures to reflect culture diffusion. The Norman culture itself was a result of the cultural diffusion between the Norse conquerors of Normandy and the local population. Perhaps a system could be implemented that names new cultures after a ruler's primary title if the ruler is of a different culture than many of the de jure provinces he controls within his primary title?

 

[cybrxkhan]

I don't agree about your example of Andalusian culture. In real history, it was as you say a melting pot of those three cultures. But in-game, it's a subculture from the arab group. So, for people of iberian culture, andalusian are as foreigners as any other arabs (maghreb, etc). So, when (silly me) i moved once my capital to Toledo before it turned castilian, and my first born son turned out to be of andalusian culture, he had a big -18 to all relations with his northern vassals.
There could be perhaps a new culture andalusian_iberic, I don't know.
And for the other melting pots, not the historic ones, but the ones that could happen, I will be more than happy to see them.

I'm aware it's not the Iberian culture group in vanilla CKII, as you said I am only discussing it in a real world sense as examples of other melting pots that the game doesn't (for gameplay reasons) consider to be melting pots. To be honest I believe Andalusian Arabic is more correctly supposed to be an Iberian culture anyways, but whatever. I was only referring to melting pots that could be considered melting pots, but are considered normal, non-melting pot cultures in-game. (Now if there was a mod that had, say, Iberia during the Muslim conquest, I would think that Andalusian would work as a melting pot there - but by CKII's timeframe, it's already a "normal" culture, just like how if you begin the game with a late start in 1337, English is already a "normal" culture rather than an unexisting culture that pops up once the triggers are met)

 

[Sforzesco]

I have an idea: what culture changes (and religions!) would have same kind of mechanic as de jure duchies drifting?
The would be some kind of percent% counter running, depending of multiple factors speeding up/slowing down the process.

This way culture would not just pop up randomly and you could work forward to change culture and see the progress! Nice and cool.

(optionally: When the counter is over 50% you could have mixed "irish-norman" or something like that)
percent values would of course need some kind of hysteresis to prevent constant flip-flop but no need to get too detailed here yet.
What do you think?

 

[TheGreatSnoop]

I know that the Russians, for example, took much influence from the Mongols, though at a later period.

How so?

 

[ziamatt]

I have an idea: what culture changes (and religions!) would have same kind of mechanic as de jure duchies drifting?
The would be some kind of percent% counter running, depending of multiple factors speeding up/slowing down the process.

This way culture would not just pop up randomly and you could work forward to change culture and see the progress! Nice and cool.

(optionally: When the counter is over 50% you could have mixed "irish-norman" or something like that)
percent values would of course need some kind of hysteresis to prevent constant flip-flop but no need to get too detailed here yet.
What do you think?

It sounds like a scaled down and much narrower version of Victoria's and Victoria 2's pop system. Is this an accurate interpretation?

 

[justin6477]

How so?

A number of names and words. Apparently some Russian lords would even claim to be descendants of Genghis Khan, something which isn't entirely unbelievable.

 

[Sforzesco]

It sounds like a scaled down and much narrower version of Victoria's and Victoria 2's pop system. Is this an accurate interpretation?

Yes exactly. That's what I thought too but did not mention

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

The 'system' is just a series of events. There would need to be planned events for each cultural shift. A fleshed out and dynamic assimilation process would certainly be cooler, though.

 

[ziamatt]

Yes exactly. That's what I thought too but did not mention

Okay I like the idea. Actually it would probably be a good system for religion too, so that you don't suddenly have entire counties abandoning their faiths. A more dynamic system for both cultural and religious conversion, sounds like a cool feature to me. I have no idea how implementable it might be though.

 

[Zireael]

I'd love more melting pots too, in Outremer, Spain and Sicily. A melting pot in England with Norwegian invasion would be nice too.

 

[ASPGolan]

Interesting topic OP. I understood it differently from the title, but once I read the description, I immediately agreed with it. Your suggestion might not be the final solution, but it's certainly an idea to consider!!

imo, we need pluri-cultural & religion realms. one county is not simply just norman or whatever and it doesn't change culture or religion overnight. the game should reflect this through percentages (every conquer leaves a footprint genetically and culturally - the game should reflect it). ultimately, the culture of the realm should be given by the aristocracy (considering the spirit of the time), but it should be noticeable difficult for norman leaders to run a region with scotish peasants and so on. so although the game should be focused on the monarchs and the ruling class, the mechanics should be more complex. and should culminate with the conversions of cultures norman -> english or whatever other noticeable cases there may be. it should also be possible to have norwegians in the de_jure England (please note that...).

definitely controversial enough, definitely worth considering / having...

[edit]
by the way, BE culture greek? really we all know that the BE was very much a blend of cultures. and a lot of eastern traits resonated in that Empire (i.e. BE administration was very influenced by persians and their way of doing things). while the BE restores the Roman Empire, they spread the greek culture all over the world? seriously? all of a sudden, in 100 years everybody becomes greek? it looks WEIRD. and its not in the spirit of that empire. I think other culture would have flurished in a not so decadent BE (or the Roman Empire restored). Furthermore, if you do restore the Roman Empire, and not have different mechanics for culture spreading -> it should be hellenic culture, not greek (to include the old romans' specifics too). Just saying.

 

[ziamatt]

I'd love more melting pots too, in Outremer, Spain and Sicily. A melting pot in England with Norwegian invasion would be nice too.

Actually I just remembered a mod that adds a melting pot event for Sicily similar to England.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-Can-t-Refuse-quot-A-Sicilian-Culture-Minimod

Though honestly I'd like to see a melting pot option for all cultures. Historically some cultures were melting pots more than others. England was a melting pot, Sicily was a melting pot, etc. In-game however, there's no reason any region couldn't be a melting pot for any cultures. So I'd like to something along the lines of that considered, maybe an event with the same basic perquisites of the English melting pot event, but it would be capable of creating new cultures for every region instead of relying on pre-defined melting pots.

 

[Kenthen]

In-game however, there's no reason any region couldn't be a melting pot for any cultures.

Yeah, after all the game quite easily diverges from history to a point where other cultures mixing actually make sense. It's "just" a matter of making sure it doesn't happen willy nilly. Well that and actually creating the new cultures.

 

[Mrkela]

this is easily modded in and already is in ck2+, paradox wont spend too much time and resources for anything thats easily modded in

 

[gja102]

I have previously suggested a system of "compound cultures", where every character's culture is made up of two fields. Instead of culture groups, there would simply be links between fields.

E.g. Post-Conquest England is ruled by the Norman French. These rulers will slowly covert to Anglo-Norman and then Anglo-Saxon (i.e. English) over time.

Norman French characters will get on okay with the 50% similar Occitan French or Sicilian Norman characters, but will suffer penalties versus the 100% different Anglo-Saxons until they start merging.

 

[agustinalarcon]

I have previously suggested a system of "compound cultures", where every character's culture is made up of two fields. Instead of culture groups, there would simply be links between fields.

E.g. Post-Conquest England is ruled by the Norman French. These rulers will slowly covert to Anglo-Norman and then Anglo-Saxon (i.e. English) over time.

Norman French characters will get on okay with the 50% similar Occitan French or Sicilian Norman characters, but will suffer penalties versus the 100% different Anglo-Saxons until they start merging.

That seems to be a good idea. So andalusian culture would be a mix of, let's say, Arab-Iberic, or Berber-Iberic, that sort of things. If a mod does that, let me know.. can it be done by changing cultures.txt ? All characters would have to be edited, for an historical start I mean, right ?

 

[ziamatt]

I have previously suggested a system of "compound cultures", where every character's culture is made up of two fields. Instead of culture groups, there would simply be links between fields.

E.g. Post-Conquest England is ruled by the Norman French. These rulers will slowly covert to Anglo-Norman and then Anglo-Saxon (i.e. English) over time.

Norman French characters will get on okay with the 50% similar Occitan French or Sicilian Norman characters, but will suffer penalties versus the 100% different Anglo-Saxons until they start merging.

I do like this. It's a good idea for a system that allows CK2 to reflect cultural shifts that they can't plan for because it didn't happen in the real world.