More culture mixing, please!

[Zhetone]

So, when the Normans take over England, they eventually become English, yes?
Well why does the same not happen when the Norwegians win their conquest?
In addition, could the same not happen with other Norman conquests, or really, just about any conquest where an invader is outnumbered by their subjects, but still wield considerable cultural influence?
The system must already exist for the English culture, so why not implement it in more places? I know CK2+ does this quite well, but not well enough due to the lack of specialization for these cultures.
I find it hard to believe that the English are entirely unique in having a culture influenced by foreign invaders. I know that the Russians, for example, took much influence from the Mongols, though at a later period. Of course they did not unite culturally, but you get the point.

 

[unmerged(527492)]

I think one way to add more culture mixing, is to add even more cultural divisions. So, perhaps Ulster-Irish and Munster-Irish are different and eventually get united into just plain Irish. Or maybe, something like Bavarian could be a Central German culture and some other cultures eventually mix into German.

On the flip side, perhaps if various kingdoms or duchies are independent, they eventually fracture back into these sub-cultures.

I'd also like to see hypothetical cultures emerge. So, I recently conquered the Byzantine Empire as the King of Italy and reformed Rome. Perhaps Latin-Greek should lead to a Roman culture re-emerging?

 

[tuareg109]

Don't forget we have Andalusian culture as well.
Semitic spelling and pronunciation with Christian names (Garcia-Carsiya, Alphonse-Adfuns, Lupo-Lubb, John-Yahya).
Similar things to this; also, I'm sure Paradox's historical dredging team can come up with some mixed-culture names.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

The only egregious one missing in vanilla currently is Norman-Italian merging to Sicilian (presumably only after k_sicily is formed by them) as far as I know.

 

[Zhetone]

I think one way to add more culture mixing, is to add even more cultural divisions. So, perhaps Ulster-Irish and Munster-Irish are different and eventually get united into just plain Irish. Or maybe, something like Bavarian could be a Central German culture and some other cultures eventually mix into German.

On the flip side, perhaps if various kingdoms or duchies are independent, they eventually fracture back into these sub-cultures.

I'd also like to see hypothetical cultures emerge. So, I recently conquered the Byzantine Empire as the King of Italy and reformed Rome. Perhaps Latin-Greek should lead to a Roman culture re-emerging?

The alternate/hypothetical cultures are really what I want.
However, the Romans conquered the Greeks. "Romans", if you consider the leading group to be of that culture, would be Italians. Since Rome didn't have a uniform culture, it would be strange to have one if it were formed again.

 

[tuareg109]

The alternate/hypothetical cultures are really what I want.
However, the Romans conquered the Greeks. "Romans", if you consider the leading group to be of that culture, would be Italians. Since Rome didn't have a uniform culture, it would be strange to have one if it were formed again.

Well, northern Italians were much influenced by the Lombards and Goths, where southern Italians were much influenced by the Greeks, Normans, and Muslims. Maybe the place closest to Ancient Roman culture WAS Rome, the Papal State, but even that was so far flung-off by A.D. 1066.
I don't think any culture of that day could "mix" to or attempt to forcibly bring back Ancient Roman culture.

 

[Porsenna]

Well, northern Italians were much influenced by the Lombards and Goths, where southern Italians were much influenced by the Greeks, Normans, and Muslims. Maybe the place closest to Ancient Roman culture WAS Rome, the Papal State, but even that was so far flung-off by A.D. 1066.
I don't think any culture of that day could "mix" to or attempt to forcibly bring back Ancient Roman culture.

You'd be surprised just how close to base line most of the peninsula remained despite all the the various powers in conflict over it - Northen Italy does, for what ever reason, rally around the idea of the Lombards in the middle ages, but for the most part Roman based culture, tradition, law, and families continued unbroken.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I think it's unnecessary to add in too many melting pots, unless if a DLC focuses exclusively on them (which I doubt). For some actual "cultures" (however that is defined), such as, say, the Flemish or the Sudanese, and so on, and cultures that are very likely to arise, such as the Sicilians (Normans are already in Sicily) or the Fatimid-Greeks (okay, that was a joke, but still) - those are probably the ones that can be added. But adding name lists and the like isn't easy, as it does take quite some research, and frankly I don't know exactly the point of melting pot cultures if there's only a 0.01% chance they'll actually arise in the game. Also not to mention what exactly defines "culture" in the game is hard to pinpoint - as many other threads on various cultures have shown, so some "cultures" in-game are already sort of melting pots already, if you know the history. Andalusian, for instance, can easily be considered a melting pot of Berber, Iberian, and Arabic; Saxon is actually Saxon + Norse (due to the heavy Norse influence in England for the previous few centuries); Turkish in Anatolia is Greek + Turkish; etc.

 

[Francis II]

The only egregious one missing in vanilla currently is Norman-Italian merging to Sicilian (presumably only after k_sicily is formed by them) as far as I know.

Yup. It should be easy to code, since the English melting pot already exists, and would add great flavor and historical accuracy.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

There's at least one mod that's added Sicilian, yes. Perhaps the Iberian cultures could melting pot into Andalusian if a muslim state forms e_spain as well. Wouldn't be too hard to add in a handful of melting pot events in patches here and there.

 

[tuareg109]

You'd be surprised just how close to base line most of the peninsula remained despite all the the various powers in conflict over it - Northen Italy does, for what ever reason, rally around the idea of the Lombards in the middle ages, but for the most part Roman based culture, tradition, law, and families continued unbroken.

But I thought Italy was severely depopulated after the Gothic Wars, and that they Lombards flooded in as much-needed immigrants, bringing their culture and traditions?

I don't mean to argue; I'm no expert, but I'm just mentioning what I know.
I want to learn, too!

 

[Ols]

Perhaps, but the critical thing to remember is that whoever filled the void started speaking a Romance language and not a Germanic one. Their customs may have been slightly different, but overall it'd still be fair to identify their "Italian" culture as a Latin one and keep it as it is.

 

[magritte2]

Actually, England seems to become English no matter what. In my game the Norman conquest was successful but they were thrown out after twenty years and the ruling class was mostly Saxon even when the King was Norman. It still became English.

Incidentally, Chris Wickham's "Early Medieval Italy" suggests that Roman traditions and culture still had a great deal of influence on Lombard Italy. And obviously, the Lombards adopted latin language and names fairly quickly. Current academic fashion seems to be to emphasize continuity between late antiquity and the medieval era and downplay the cultural/demographic turnover in western Europe, at least relative to traditional historians.

 

[Bezborg]

Since Rome didn't have a uniform culture, it would be strange to have one if it were formed again.

One might argue (and many have) that the invention of Christianity as and organized religion subject to the state was an attempt to accomplish just that - a uniform Roman culture. A national identity if you will, superior to ethnicity mixed with legal status (citizenship).

On topic - I too would like more melting pots, especially in Spain

 

[tuareg109]

One might argue (and many have) that the invention of Christianity as and organized religion subject to the state was an attempt to accomplish just that - a uniform Roman culture. A national identity if you will, superior to ethnicity mixed with legal status (citizenship).

On topic - I too would like more melting pots, especially in Spain

But Christianity has nothing to do with Ancient Rome?

As for melting pots...Balkan, brate. Tu je sve.

 

[La_Moustache]

Can we also get something that stops cultures from changing or mixing as well? I hate when the Basques disappear in game or the Bohemians. There should be benefits to being a different cultures, or maybe lower crown authority removes the penalty for being of different cultures. As much as I love turning the entire eastern med. into a Greek sea it is ridiculous.

(also totally in favor of more melting pots)

 

[Zaldax]

There's at least one mod that's added Sicilian, yes. Perhaps the Iberian cultures could melting pot into Andalusian if a muslim state forms e_spain as well. Wouldn't be too hard to add in a handful of melting pot events in patches here and there.

Hi, creator of said mod here! Link's in my sig, but it's been incorporated into most of the major overhaul mods at this point so if you use one of them, you're good.

Coding wasn't too difficult, thankfully -- though there were strange bugs that popped up here and there it took me forever to figure out. Having the other Iberian cultures morph into Andulusian should be easy (it can theoretically happen in vanilla, it just relies upon the standard "switch to liege's culture" events/decisions), but they could easily modify the code so that it becomes more probable if e_spain is formed by a muslim ruler.

More melting pots is something I'm definitely a big fan of; I really hope Paradox sees this thread, and decides to implement more of them in game!

 

[unmerged(527492)]

Maybe Duchies should be granted de Jure cultures, and tax is slightly lower (2%), reinforcements slightly lower(2-5%) and revolts slightly more likely while those territories are not their de jure culture. And then allow a 100 year de jure culture drift to occur.

And then grant rulers the option to convert to de jure culture. This would also potentially help with the phenomena where Spain ends up being ruled by French of German lords.

 

[Octavio]

Quite a lot of provinces switch to the culture type of their direct ruler in my games, so I don´t think changing anything is all too necessary.

It would be nice if culture changes were also determined by the provinces culture tech or something, since there were regions like Al-Andalus that didn´t change much after conquest, probably because they were much more advanced than the christian kingdoms.

 

[Lwantssugar]

the only thing I have an issue with is where it looks like there should be an obvious melting pot event but it doesnt occur... to this date Ive never seen a French culture emerge