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Alexander Seil

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A correction, there's nothing "heavy" about a T-34. You may be thinking of the huge lumbering behemoths (T-28 and T-35 if I am not mistaken) that the Soviets deployed, and which were basically useless (well, except maybe for being really cool forts :p ).

KV-1 and KV-2 were more useful, though, it seems. Both would be "heavy tanks," I suppose.

EDIT: This brings to mind that the Soviets deployed a bewildering array of light, medium and heavy tanks before 1941, so one has to wonder which aspects Paradox will emphasize.
 

Tyson_48

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A correction, there's nothing "heavy" about a T-34. You may be thinking of the huge lumbering behemoths (T-28 and T-35 if I am not mistaken) that the Soviets deployed, and which were basically useless (well, except maybe for being really cool forts :p ).

KV-1 and KV-2 were more useful, though, it seems. Both would be "heavy tanks," I suppose.

EDIT: This brings to mind that the Soviets deployed a bewildering array of light, medium and heavy tanks before 1941, so one has to wonder which aspects Paradox will emphasize.


Well, compared to the german Pz-I/II or even III the T-34 is really heavy.
Compared to the Maus it is more an armoured car :D

So the points mentioned in the diary let me think the germans will start with a big advantage in light/medium tank technology, while the su will start with better heavy techs.
The better efficiency of the german division will be surely based on doctrines etc.
 

Alexander Seil

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I don't see why Germans have to start with a bonus in tank technology, per se. They should get a doctrine bonus - their early war tanks were either crap, or Czech :p

By contrast, the Soviets should have an impressive tank armada that falls apart in the first encounter, because of terrible doctrines and awful generals.
 

Khevenhuller

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Alexander

Quite right...

But I thought this thread was about ships? How about specialist amphibious shipping that would make landings easier?

K
 
Last edited:

th3freakie

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By contrast, the Soviets should have an impressive tank armada that falls apart in the first encounter, because of terrible doctrines and awful generals.
If they purge of course. ;)
 

punishment

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Well, compared to the german Pz-I/II or even III the T-34 is really heavy.
Compared to the Maus it is more an armoured car :D

So the points mentioned in the diary let me think the germans will start with a big advantage in light/medium tank technology, while the su will start with better heavy techs.
The better efficiency of the german division will be surely based on doctrines etc.

Well, the classification was more based on which kind of mission can the tank perform, rather than the actuall weight(and certainly not how tough it is).
I believe that's the reason why Panther was classified as medium although it has arguably better performance than Tiger I and is slightly heavier than JS-2 (which is classified as heavy).
Also M26 Pershing(roughly the same weight and performance as Panther) was first classified as heavy since it has got a greatly underpowered engine. After they retrofitted it with a better engine it is re-classified as medium.
So no I don't think heavy and medium are relative terms, if that's what you're suggesting. If Maus had had similar mobility, reliability as T34s have and can pass bridges as Shermans do, I'd say it's a medium tank, although maybe a super advanced one.
 

Zinegata

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I don't see why Germans have to start with a bonus in tank technology, per se. They should get a doctrine bonus - their early war tanks were either crap, or Czech :p

It might be justifiable for the Germans to get a reliability bonus early on as well, since the Panzer III and IV both proved to be pretty solid vehicles (with the latter serving for the entire war). Not so sure about the reliability of the Czech tanks, but I know most of them continued to serve even as late as 1945 as converted tank destroyers.

By contrast, the Soviets should have an impressive tank armada that falls apart in the first encounter, because of terrible doctrines and awful generals.

The Soviet tank armada by contrast should have pretty crappy reliability - since many, if not most tanks were lost due to poor maintenance rather than direct combat. Except for the T-34, most of the Soviet tank lines ended up being discontinued precisely because there really wasn't time to "iron out" the bugs in production, albeit in theory even their light BT tanks should have been a match for early Mk IIIs and Mk IVs.
 
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Do we have an indication as to how many types of ship there are?

I hope they're customisable (as has been hinted out re tanks, IIRC) - if I wanna' design a massive, treaty-breaking battleship that will make the Bismark look like a rubber dingy with a few bolts sellotaped to the side.. well.. who's gonna stop me? :D
 

Zinegata

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Well, the classification was more based on which kind of mission can the tank perform, rather than the actuall weight(and certainly not how tough it is).
I believe that's the reason why Panther was classified as medium although it has arguably better performance than Tiger I and is slightly heavier than JS-2 (which is classified as heavy).
Also M26 Pershing(roughly the same weight and performance as Panther) was first classified as heavy since it has got a greatly underpowered engine. After they retrofitted it with a better engine it is re-classified as medium.
So no I don't think heavy and medium are relative terms, if that's what you're suggesting. If Maus had had similar mobility, reliability as T34s have and can pass bridges as Shermans do, I'd say it's a medium tank, although maybe a super advanced one.

The problem partly stems from the fact that different countries have different definitions of what a light, medium, and heavy tank is, and what they should do.

In general, the main distinction of a heavy tank over a medium tank is that the former has superior all-around armor protection. A Panther has better frontal armor than a Tiger I, but a Tiger generally has better side and rear armor than a Panther. US and German armies also generally require heavy tanks to have a bigger gun (i.e. 88mm and 90mm). Russian and British armies did not (KV tanks had the same gun as the T-34, while British Churchills were often armed with 6 pounders used by smaller tanks).

Russians, Germans, and Americans all subscribed to the "medium" tank concept - which was basically a good, all-around tank that could be produced in large numbers. For them, this was the T-34, Panzer IV (or later, Panther), and the Sherman respectively. The Brits however had a different classification system, with infantry tanks (very slow, heavily armored tanks), cruiser tanks (very fast, lightly armored), medium tanks (bought from Americans, mainly the Shermans), or Gun tanks (Shermans armed with the 17 pounder). While infantry tanks are roughly analogous to heavy tanks used by other powers, cruiser and Gun tanks are a bit harder to have a direct comparison.

Overall, I'd say that a tank should be defined by its speed, reliability, gun power, and armor. Not by labels such as "light, medium, or heavy".
 

TheLand

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if I wanna' design a massive, treaty-breaking battleship that will make the Bismark look like a rubber dingy with a few bolts sellotaped to the side.. well.. who's gonna stop me? :D[/FONT]

The fact it will take 5 years to build and use up all of your steel production in the meantime? ;)
 
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I don't see why Germans have to start with a bonus in tank technology, per se. They should get a doctrine bonus - their early war tanks were either crap, or Czech :p

By contrast, the Soviets should have an impressive tank armada that falls apart in the first encounter, because of terrible doctrines and awful generals.

Soviet tanks were awful until the T-34, the BT-7M wasnt bad but they were generally considered inferior until the T-34
 

daemonofdecay

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But I thought this thread was about ships? How about specialist amphibious shipping that would make landings easier?

I've always had an idea about this that I have seen others share as well, that I think resolves the problem with landings very easily.

First off, all transport ships are able to make opposed and unapposed landings, for gameplay and historic reasons. If you ever look at some of the pictures from the Gallipoli campaign in WW1 you can see some great shots of transports with huge wooden walkways/ramps to allow infantry to disembark onto the beaches.

But if using just regular transports, then the units making the landing suffer the full amphibious landing penalties, because its a very innefecient and vulnerable way to land troops: its hard to imagine D-Day working without the Higgins boats because the German artillery could have decimated those vulnerable transports as they moved in to the beaches. So if you make an opposed landing without dedicated landing craft you get big penalties: if the enemy has costal fortifications, then the costal fort bonus should be doubled to emphasis the need for dedicated landing craft to deal with dug in infantry.

Secondly, there should be a side tech off of marines should be "Amphibious Landing Craft", with at least 2 techs for it. The first tech would unlock an attachable "Brigade" for transports (not an automatic upgrade) which would increase their cost by a few ICs to represent building all those Higgins boats.

If, say, landing craft reduced the amphibious landing penalty by half (50%), then it would work similiar to as follows:
- Infantry, Mountain, Marines, Para brigades would get the full 50% reduction. Marines already get other reductions in amphibious landings, so no need to make their LCVPs (Landing Craft, Vehicle, Personnel or Higgins boat) more effective for some reason. :D
- Motorized brigades would get a 45% reduction because they are just like regular infantry, but have trucks to increase their speed: this would represent them landing on the beaches without trucks like normal infantry, hence the lesser yet similiar reduction.
- Mechanized brigades would get a 5% reduction in the penalty for most of the same reasons as above, except that mechanized infantry invests alot into its half-tracks, etc. and wouldn't be able to bring those along.
- Armoured brigades would get a 2% reduction to represent the first steps towards amphibious tanks and the like, but they should normally already have larger penalties than the other types.​

After that, the next tech level would represent larger and more advanced landing craft, like LCTs (Landing Craft, Tank) and LCMs (Landing Craft, Mechanized) that would increase the reduction for all types as it would allow greater numbers to reach the beaches, more supplies, etc. and would reduce the penalty for landing by, say 79% (I'm just making up these %s to show the general idea, not the specifics of what division gets exactly what reduction).
- Infantry, Mountain, Marines, Para brigades would get the full 70% reduction.
- Motorized brigades would get a 65% reduction for the same reasons as above.
- Mechanized brigades would get a 40% reduction in the penalty for the same reasons as above, but in this case they can now land with some of their APCs on the larger craft. They still should not be the units best suited for invading a defended beach, however.
- Armoured brigades would get a 15% reduction to represent the newer craft able to carry tanks to the beaches, but tanks being landed are still vulnerable to the dug in defenders (wet terrain, not able to move fast, not open country, etc.).​

Then there should probably be a third tech for more modern landing craft and landing technology, although this is debatable and not really necissary the Allies used their craft for many years: the US used LCTs in Korea and Vietnam, for example, and reducing the negative modifer any further could make landings too easy: in fact, I am tempted to go back and reduce the reductions, but feel that the exact number isn't important, but the concept I want to get accross.

One other thing I would like to see in the game would be for an 'Amphibious Vehicle ' tech that could be abother off shoot of marines, or a mix of marines and motorized that would represent vehicles such as the DUKW, Schwimmwagen, etc. that could give a small modifier to Infantry, marine, mechanized and motorized troops when attempting amphibious landings and when attempting to fight accross rivers. It would be small (5% or so) and could be followed by a 'Amphibious Tank' tech that would give armoured brigades that (5%) bonus as well.
 

daemonofdecay

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Would be nice if the iceberg carrier that UK was working on was in the game ^^ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk however I somehow doubt it...

What about the Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte? :rofl:

ratte800li7.jpg

P1000.png
 

Alexander Seil

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Not to bring this thread back on topic (God forbid!), but I think the latest dev. diary answers the questions posed before we went off tangent, discussing very big metal rat(te)s.
 

unmerged(15623)

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I've gone away and checked my sources... and I don't think Dreadnought's turbines were geared, they were just designed for very slow rpms. Which meant lower efficiency and more space required.

Actually, I took the Dreaddy one off wiki, so I guess I got corrected for a good reason. :eek:o It listed it as having single reduction gear, I wonder what that would have meant.

In any case, I can see what you mean by more space required, as to be able to transfer the power more or less directly to the shafts those must have been huge, huge trubines. Or very, very low steam pressure. Most likely a combination of both.
 

Filou

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Do we have an indication as to how many types of ship there are?
12 types of ships IIRC (it was mentionned fairly early)
 

Alexander Seil

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Depending on whether nuclear submarines still exist (and whether they are lumped together with regular submarines), I cannot account for 2-3 types. Any guesses?

Right now we have, BB, BC, CA, CL, DD, CV, CVL, SS, TP and possibly SSN.