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daemonofdecay

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I rather prefer identical carriers. It will be mighty odd to build carriers with Japan, named after the real ones, only this time with a game mechanic that guarantees that are equal to the Americans (because lets face it, no-one's gonna build anything but the best).

Thats actually my worry as well. It seems like the Devs have suggested that AI nations will have units that reflect their historical choices (USSR will embrace sloped armor earlier, for example), but if thats the case then the player will have an advantage because he is not handicapped.

But at the same time, trying to balance the different guns is going to be tought. They would need to give the human player a real reason to choose 37mm guns over 50mm guns for a tank, otherwise you will always see tanks with the biggest guns possible no matter what. . .

Which will just lead us to the Maus Panzer divisions running (crawling? :rofl:) across europe.
 

TheLand

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But at the same time, trying to balance the different guns is going to be tought. They would need to give the human player a real reason to choose 37mm guns over 50mm guns for a tank, otherwise you will always see tanks with the biggest guns possible no matter what. . .

There is a difficult piece of design here.

The naive way of looking at any piece of kit (tank, plane or warship) is to add up its vital statistics e.g. speed, armour, armament calibre, and conclude that a ship with more is a better ship.

In reality there are an awful lot more subtleties involved. Armour is a very complex subject, different guns of the same calibre have wildly different performance; boring things like fuel capacity, damage resistance, crew accomodation and stability have a huge impact on practical use.

And those headline differences aren't necessarily that important either. If a ship displaces 10,000 tons it can only be so good: whether it has 8in or 6in guns is not necessarily that important as more 6in guns are just as powerful as fewer 8in (give or take); it can have 4in armour rather than 3in but that means less area is armoured - unless you want to reduce speed, which is a huge drawback in real life but not a drawback at all in the HOI2 combat model...

The challenge from a game design perspective is to sort out a way that the player can make meaningful choices without giving them a huge advantage over the AI or without creating a whole set of unrealistic designs...
 

daemonofdecay

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The challenge from a game design perspective is to sort out a way that the player can make meaningful choices without giving them a huge advantage over the AI or without creating a whole set of unrealistic designs...

Thats one of the reasons I was quite pleased with HoI2s more generalized approach to armoured divisions: you had the different tech levels give you a basic comprable division of verying capability, and the differences between the divisions were then shaped by doctrines and other tech research, not to mention ministers and generals.

Because honestly, how much of a difference is there between an armoured division who have 75mm gun Shermans and 76mm gun Shermans? And don't say 1mm. :p

Is the difference enought to give the 75mm Sherman division 24 hard attack and the 76mm Sherman division 25?

And do we really want to see Panzer Is with 88mm guns? :rofl:
 

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And those headline differences aren't necessarily that important either. If a ship displaces 10,000 tons it can only be so good: whether it has 8in or 6in guns is not necessarily that important as more 6in guns are just as powerful as fewer 8in (give or take); it can have 4in armour rather than 3in but that means less area is armoured - unless you want to reduce speed, which is a huge drawback in real life but not a drawback at all in the HOI2 combat model...

The challenge from a game design perspective is to sort out a way that the player can make meaningful choices without giving them a huge advantage over the AI or without creating a whole set of unrealistic designs...

Indeed. While one could argue that something like Brooklyn was inferior to a limited degree to panzerschiffes at long range it certainly would not be in situations similar to those at Battle of Barents Sea.

The RoF from Lützow class was around 15 per minutes (with that kind of RoF, ammo would be avilable for 48 mins) with total shell weight of 4500kg which includes 99kg of explosive charge.

Brooklyn could get 135 shells out in the same minute (for 22 mins) for 7965kg of shellage with 121,5kg charge.

So not only had this American "light" cruiser much better firepower than the German pocket "battleship" it managed to do it with 30% less diplacement, and much better protection, speed and endurance.

One could argue that making an overgunned cruiser should yield, in HoI2 terms, a ship with lesser stats. British certainly found out that it wasn't that good idea with the trio aptly nicknamed Spurious, Curious and Outrageous (some official sourses give Furious, Glorious and Courageous as their "real" names).

TheLand said exactly what I was thinking about posting here, calibers have different pros and cons; in the end the ship's size matters the most.

And like I have said before, there wasn't that much compromising things like armour for speed and firepower in WW2 era. Majority of WW2 ship designs aimed to create balanced ships with good armour, firepower and speed; things like Washington "Tin-clads" and light scout cruisers (early Condottiere and Agano/Oyodo) were exceptions.

Again this was certainly significant in some areas - British battleships were given geared turbines to improve their fuel efficiency (for instance).

Geared turbines are about as old as steam turbines themself. Even Dreadnought was geared. In fact, I don't think you can have steam turbine ship at all without reduction gears, as the turbines themself are rotating in thousands of RPM range, while the propeller shafts were in hundreds.

In Myokos case (which might be of interest as the same setup was used on Amagi/Akagi BC/CV) it was like this in short;

There were four trubine rooms, each with 4 turbines (first 2 HP, then 2 LP). The 4 turbines in each room were connected all to one shaft (of the four) by four-pinion reduction gear. Further, there were 2 cruising turbines in the 2 foward turbine rooms, which had their own reduction gear (the RPM was further lowered with the main gear).

I'd be very interested in detalied info on the turbine arrangements on KGV, for example, if you have.

Thats actually my worry as well. It seems like the Devs have suggested that AI nations will have units that reflect their historical choices (USSR will embrace sloped armor earlier, for example), but if thats the case then the player will have an advantage because he is not handicapped.

I think the dev statement you are thinking about was about different brigade composition for divisions? Like soviets using artillery divisions, or Japan using it's marines as single brigades.
 
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th3freakie

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In reality there are an awful lot more subtleties involved. Armour is a very complex subject, different guns of the same calibre have wildly different performance; boring things like fuel capacity, damage resistance, crew accomodation and stability have a huge impact on practical use.
All this is true, but nothing the game engine can reproduce unfortunately. So any player that isn't willingly going for the challenge will always outfit his ships with the best and biggest, for the simple reason that in the game all that will matter in the end is Sea Attack and Sea Defence (or air).
 

Alexander Seil

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All this is true, but nothing the game engine can reproduce unfortunately. So any player that isn't willingly going for the challenge will always outfit his ships with the best and biggest, for the simple reason that in the game all that will matter in the end is Sea Attack and Sea Defence (or air).

But there is a very simple reason why Japan would use less advanced carriers than the US - less leadership and different technical "skills" (or whatever Johan described in the tech. diary) at start. So, while at the beginning of the war Japanese carriers may be superior, they will be overtaken by the US quickly with its massive leadership and skill boni from production (according to Johan, spitting out carrier after carrier will improve your ability to research carrier techs).

Not to mention that Japan will be hard pressed to allocate its scarce leadership among different projects, since they have so many commitments and so little IC to pursue them (I don't imply that IC has anything to do with research *directly* though, but in a sense that they can't just build a 100 carriers and learn while practicing).
 

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But there is a very simple reason why Japan would use less advanced carriers than the US - less leadership and different technical "skills" (or whatever Johan described in the tech. diary) at start. So, while at the beginning of the war Japanese carriers may be superior, they will be overtaken by the US quickly with its massive leadership and skill boni from production (according to Johan, spitting out carrier after carrier will improve your ability to research carrier techs).

Is there any difference between Japanese and US carrier, other than the fact that during wartime, Japan never built any kind of Essexesque enlarged and improved Zuikaku, and instead opted to make repeats of the even older Hiryu?

These aren't national differences, right? Just technological limitations causing Japans research to stagnate in comparison to US as you describe.
 
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th3freakie

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These aren't national differences, right? Just technological limitations causing Japans research to stagnate in comparison to US as you describe.
Indeed. That countries built differently according to tech is no surprise, and even HoI1 engine replicated that.

My point was that on whatever the current level of tech a player has, he will never build anything but the best he can, because there will be no reason for it - except cost perhaps, but since the cost of opportunity of NOT building the best you can is higher then 0.5 more IC...
 

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Because honestly, how much of a difference is there between an armoured division who have 75mm gun Shermans and 76mm gun Shermans? And don't say 1mm. :p
1mm diameter and about 1m length? (L40 vs. L55)
-> 30-50% improved armor penetration (roughly comparable to German 75mm L48 on Pz IVh)
[info from wikipedia and other web sources]
Is the difference enought to give the 75mm Sherman division 24 hard attack and the 76mm Sherman division 25?
Probably, if not more.
And do we really want to see Panzer Is with 88mm guns? :rofl:
Certainly some components will need to limit other components; you can't put a gun that big in a turret that will fit on a hull that small. You'd probably need to research 'upgraded hull' first (basically replacing the whole tank).
 

Alex_brunius

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IMy point was that on whatever the current level of tech a player has, he will never build anything but the best he can, because there will be no reason for it - except cost perhaps, but since the cost of opportunity of NOT building the best you can is higher then 0.5 more IC...
That depends very much on what weapons you look at. Looking at subs from HoI2 for example you can compare:

1936 model with 3 sea attack (320IC days)
1944 model with 4 sea attack (640IC days) or perhaps:
Nuclear model with 6 sea attack (2560IC days)

Going from first to last you get 100% more sea attack and 0% more strenght for 800% extra cost. Not a very bright improvement really.
 

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Do we really want that kind of micromanagement though?

I mean, i want to be busy with waging war, not deciding how many torpedo bombers i will have in my CAG.

I think that is one of the best things of HOI2. Allowing you too easily work with the units, so you can focus more on the tactics.

I don't want to spend tons of time micromanaging everything either but I certainly want the options. All they need is an intuitive default and custom class system that I'm sure is there for the land division brigade design.

It's really just annoying how generic and plain every unit is in Hoi2. With CAG as an example you could make a special carrier bomber squadron and hit Tokyo in early '42 as a symbolic bombing like IRL. Don't need to do it if building default everything is fine with you but I'd love the option.

Hell look up that crazy 400ft submarine carrier the Japanese built in order to sail around the world (the other way) and launch it's planes to destroy the Panama canal. It was ready to go when the war ended. I'd love a system deep enough to do the crazy specialist stuff that was purpose build IRL.
 

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Actually, I think that building outdated carriers was a pretty decent thing to do in HoI2. I was always saddened when the lvl 2 ones became obsolete.

Hell look up that crazy 400ft submarine carrier the Japanese built in order to sail around the world (the other way) and launch it's planes to destroy the Panama canal. It was ready to go when the war ended. I'd love a system deep enough to do the crazy specialist stuff that was purpose build IRL.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the seaplanes on the Japanese submarines that had them were intended for spotting potential targets.

The seaplanes on Agano and Oyodo classes (which were intended as sub flotilla leaders) were certainly intended for that.
 
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Alexander Seil

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BTW, before we go completely off track, I am almost 99% certain that there won't be any custom-designed tanks. There will be only the latest models, and whatever non-upgraded models you have in service. The latest model will be probably simply determined by the latest state of tech in every area.
 

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Actually, I think that building outdated carriers was a pretty decent thing to do in HoI2. I was always saddened when the lvl 2 ones became obsolete.



Correct me if I'm wrong but the seaplanes on the Japanese submarines that had them were intended for spotting potential targets.

The seaplanes on Agano and Oyodo classes (which were intended as sub flotilla leaders) were certainly intended for that.

Japanese I-400. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400_class_submarine
http://combinedfleet.com/ship.php?q=sen_toku.htm

Built 3 of these 400ft submarines that carried 3 seaplanes (800KG bomb and 1000km range) in it's own hanger deck and had a range of 37,750 miles. Just if anyone is interested. Would've been damned useful in taking out a small target anywhere in the world if they'd had a chance to use it.

And back to topic I'm guessing ship construction will just be more like HOI1 where it just has whatever tech available at the time and the ability to upgrade it to the maximum the base level allows.

I also seriously doubt there's going to be tank design. I would love it though. It's actually shocking how outclassed the German Tanks were by the T34 at first. Hindsight would let you build the Panther immediately. One thing I kind of really don't want is the whole build only latest class thing or even upgrading at all. It was definitely more effective to mass produce one type even if an improved one could be designed. And only then changes were made based on cost reduction and necessity. Like bigger guns in the T34/85. Just don't really know how to represent still using old equipment without having much more detailed division statistics.
 
Last edited:

TheLand

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Geared turbines are about as old as steam turbines themself. Even Dreadnought was geared. In fact, I don't think you can have steam turbine ship at all without reduction gears, as the turbines themself are rotating in thousands of RPM range, while the propeller shafts were in hundreds.

I think the issue is whether they had reduction gears optimised for cruising speeds as well as top speeds.
 

TheLand

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Geared turbines are about as old as steam turbines themself. Even Dreadnought was geared. In fact, I don't think you can have steam turbine ship at all without reduction gears, as the turbines themself are rotating in thousands of RPM range, while the propeller shafts were in hundreds.

I've gone away and checked my sources... and I don't think Dreadnought's turbines were geared, they were just designed for very slow rpms. Which meant lower efficiency and more space required.
 

daemonofdecay

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The latest model will be probably simply determined by the latest state of tech in every area.

Actually, that was pretty much my thoughts too: if you research 50mm guns for your early Medium tanks, all your new Tank brigades will then have 50mm guns while your old ones will slowly upgrade to the new tank model.

As for ships, well I imagine it will be pretty similiar, but there will (hopefully) be more customization for your ships because there are fewer of them and customizing them makes a little bit more sense (2 gun turrets vs 3, for example). But even this could be limited to the best tech possible to keep things streamlined.
 

Khevenhuller

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Hell look up that crazy 400ft submarine carrier the Japanese built in order to sail around the world (the other way) and launch it's planes to destroy the Panama canal. It was ready to go when the war ended. I'd love a system deep enough to do the crazy specialist stuff that was purpose build IRL.

Gives the French the option of building more Surcoufs with those 8" guns...

K
 

Alexander Seil

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Yes, because 2-3 planes carrying a couple of bombs would really back up traffic in a FIFTY mile canal?

They could bomb the locks, but it would be an utter crapshoot, not to mention that the subs themselves would be detected and destroyed long before they reached the Carribean. Oh, and don't forget anti-aircraft batteries.
 

Tyson_48

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It's actually shocking how outclassed the German Tanks were by the T34 at first. Hindsight would let you build the Panther immediately. One thing I kind of really don't want is the whole build only latest class thing or even upgrading at all.

I remember in one of the diaries Johans mentioned that problem.
You will only able to research new techs if you build up units with the existing ones ;)

So if i understand correctly the russians starts with advanced heavy-tank techs so they could build a t34-class tank earlier than the germans.
The germans must construct many light and medium tanks to get "research-bonuses" to advance their techs, perhaps they must even encounter a su-heavytank on the battlefield to get an event which accelerate the research progress on german heavy tanks...


Then if you want to change the production line from the older model to the new/better one, you will suffer a penalty for the line.
This could be a good reason to continue the production of old models in mass production before changing the line and suffer the penalty...