Mordvin Kingdom - playing tall

[Narvait]

Playing Ironman Mordvin campaign from the Old Gods start date.
Want to play something different from Empire building, so gonna content myself to ruling just K_Vladimir.
Any advice? Blobing excluding?
/ in big lines, I am thinking to convert to either Romuva (no idea how) or Islam to avoid gavelkind and to make all Russian lands my tributaries for money.

 

[WJS]

I've got a Meshchera game right now where I've taken over Vladimir, Chernigov, and Novgorod, reformed Suomenusko, and chose Ancestor Veneration to unlock Eldership.

The big thing to keep in mind is that the area is poor. Dirt poor. You're only raiding other tribal or nomad land. As a result, even after you're reformed, you're going to be tribal for a long time. Even if the other Russian lands are tributaries, they make nothing, so your cut of diddly is squat. That said, having extra troops to call up when the nomads come knocking is worth it.

Switching to Romuva or Islam is easy enough: invite a concubine to court.

It's an interesting area, though, because you have to think more in terms of what you can get and never assume you'll have the funds for anything.

 

[Narvait]

But I know I recently tried the concubine religion thing but could not find how?
Previously it used to be under intrigue menu. Will check again today.

Romuva or Islam - which one is better? I had played Romuva a lot, but only couple of times Islam. Remember decadence was not cool back then.

 

[Castimirr]

But I know I recently tried the concubine religion thing but could not find how?
Previously it used to be under intrigue menu. Will check again today.

You can only use that to switch to Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Zoroastrian. (Maybe a reformed pagan religion but I don't know). I think Zealous also blocks it.

 

[Narvait]

You can only use that to switch to Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Zoroastrian. (Maybe a reformed pagan religion but I don't know). I think Zealous also blocks it.

So, Islam it is then.

Now must decide on when. If my military org is below 4 with Islam I am gonna be at significant attrition disadvantage fighting neighbor Slavics and Suomenuskos. Also my garrisons would have less soldiers in them.

 

[WJS]

Right-click your concubine, and you should be given the option to convert to their religion (maybe secretly).

As a pagan, you cam also take a Romuva wife.

I generally prefer Romuva to Islam, because you don't have to deal with decadence or sibling rivalry, but Islam does have more resources and more realms to support you. In the end, I decided to reform Suomenusko, but that required subjugating Novgorod, for access to the Novgorod and Kakisami holy sites (Ryazan is right there for you).

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Islam is muuuuuch better for tribal pagans to switch to than any other religion. It immediately shunts you into Open, whereas with everything else best you can get is Gavelkind, and you'd still need vassal approval to switch.

I typically use that and once done conquering the desired pagan Holy Sites (and converting to feudal,) switch back and reform.

 

[WJS]

With unreformed Romuva or African, you can also choose Eldership. African is harder to get out in Mordvin land, though.

 

[Castimirr]

So, Islam it is then.

Now must decide on when. If my military org is below 4 with Islam I am gonna be at significant attrition disadvantage fighting neighbor Slavics and Suomenuskos. Also my garrisons would have less soldiers in them.

You will need to build forts to counter the attrition. Given where you are that might wind up being a significant cost unless you can manage to grab prisoners to ransom.

 

[Narvait]

So, I went into Islam myself and voila +25% taxes I guess I never gonna convert my pagans into good Muslims

But I don’t understand - I directly control temple, but they show me - wrong type of building? Why? Wiki says Iqta govt can own temples without penalty?

 

[knppel]

You're still tribal however, not Iqta yet.

 

[Dragatus]

I suppose the optimal way to do it would have been to first conquer the entire kingdom of Vladimir as a Soumensko pagan with the become king ambition and then convert to Sunni or whatever other branch of Islam you fancy. That way you avoid having to deal with attrition and the defensive buffs Soumensko gets in homeland provinces while you're busy conquering since you get them too. But then once you have your kingdom and you stop expanding you can fairly safely make the switch, given how you won't be fighting quite as much anymore.

You will have a bit of a target painted on you forehead being of a different religion than your neighbors, but as long as you keep a decently sized army they shouldn't be too belligerent. Army size is the key thing to focus on early (besides having heirs) as it will keep the pagans off your back. I think that as long as you remain tribal and aren't Zealous you'll even be able to join warrior lodges, which you probably should. Beyond that you can work on converting the pagans around you to the true faith. You might even get asked to perform a mass conversion.

 

[Narvait]

Actually that is what I did.

I am a king of Vladimir (renamed into Mordova) already and own like whole Vladimir, plus my nasty vassal subjugated Polotsk and I made Gardariki my tributary.
Now I am Sunni (secret Suomenusko) and my son is Sunni (secret Suomenusko). I enjoy extra taxes plus Open succession, but I am not sure if need to convert everything Sunni. Since then I lose +25% on money side.

Besides I am not yet sure how, but one of intermediate goals is to become Feudal and personally own every province.
Problem though - Vladimir has 21 provinces, lol. Not sure what is the max demesne at king level.

 

[Dragatus]

That depends on Stewardship. But without taking that into account the base for kings is 3, you can get +4 from centralization, and +2 from abolishing the council which all adds up to 9 demesne before factoring in Stewardship. You could get another +3 if you somehow managed to convert to Jain.

 

[majdavlk]

vassalizing mercenaries
creating your own mercenary band

you could try getting nomadic holding as your capital to buff your retinues, but that would probably make you into an empire, dont know if you are content with that

Besides I am not yet sure how, but one of intermediate goals is to become Feudal and personally own every province.
Problem though - Vladimir has 21 provinces, lol. Not sure what is the max demesne at king level.

one of the options is burning holdings in all of your excess provinces to not get a penalty for holding too many of them

if you want to have holdings in all of those counties without penalty then :
king tier base +3
centralization laws +4
abolished council +2
(jain or peacefip pagan) +3
(tribal government?) +2
gavelkind / elective gavelkind *1.3

if you get at least 14 (maybe 15 will be required depends on rounding) stewardship

btw i do not think there is a limit on maximum demense limit. at least not until other qspeasp of the game break first, ( like memory overflow)

 

[Woifee]

You shouldn’t go full north korea mode. It’s not worth it.

But if you do make all holdings in your capital county of type you can hold without penalty because they will not suffer from the penalty of going over demense limit.

This way you can still get some troops.

 

[WJS]

Yes, holding the Kingdom of Vladimir yourself isn't very efficient, but holding the Duchy of Vladimir yourself is a really good option. Six provinces, and the largest one in the kingdom are there.

 

[majdavlk]

You shouldn’t go full north korea mode. It’s not worth it.

But if you do make all holdings in your capital county of type you can hold without penalty because they will not suffer from the penalty of going over demense limit.

This way you can still get some troops.

i think that only the capital holding gets the exception to over demense penalty

 

[Narvait]

Yes, holding the Kingdom of Vladimir yourself isn't very efficient, but holding the Duchy of Vladimir yourself is a really good option. Six provinces, and the largest one in the kingdom are there.

Given all the info above I might opt out for two Duchies myself and make the rest of them independent tributary states.

Now to get Jain might be A BIT challenging. I should start by Buddhist from nomads, then marry/invite some Jain, then land him, wait for conversion, then convert myself.

Other option is reform Suomenusko into Peaceful...

 

[majdavlk]

if you do not manage ro get jain or peaceful reformee doctrine then you will need additional 14 or 15 stewardship ( if gavelkind)