Morale is king in 1.8?

[Nutcracker]

With the new changes to damage calculations (exponential values from dice rolls replaced by linear), battles are much more of a grind in 1.8. Big roll differentials don't move the dial like they used to, dampening the difference from general, pips, terrain, and plain old fashioned luck.

Decisive battles are much harder to achieve because of this (at least in their old form).

My take is that the tradeoff between staying power (morale) and killing power (pips, and to a lesser extent discipline) has swung decisively in favour of morale. It's enough to rethink Defensive again as your first military idea set to take, rather than Offensive.

What are everyone's thoughts/observations?

 

[Hagbard00]

Morale was always most important.

 

[ahyangyi]

Morale was always most important.

(Looking at the Big Blue Blob)

 

[mgoetze]

Tactics/Discipline were the most important military stat in 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6 and 1.7.

In 1.8 the most important military stat is ... Tactics/Discipline.

 

[oblio-]

Morale was always most important.

It wasn't in 1.7.

Tactics/Discipline were the most important military stat in 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6 and 1.7.

In 1.8 the most important military stat is ... Tactics/Discipline.

Tactics is only controlled via military tech, which any decent player already keeps up to date.
As a result people only care about things improved through ideas, ergo discipline, morale, pips.

And in 1.7 pips > discipline (2 extra pipes wiped out 10% discipline).

 

[anomalacaris]

I thought there is math involving new numbers to see
Well morale is always important since it determine both morale HP and morale damage, hence always the outcry about Elan. Back in the days there were +25% morale...

 

[mgoetze]

Tactics is only controlled via military tech, which any decent player already keeps up to date.

It's not always that simple, as truly decent players go for something more challenging than a western-tech nation.

As a result people only care about things improved through ideas, ergo discipline, morale, pips.

Discipline and Tactics are one and the same.

 

[oblio-]

It's not always that simple, as truly decent players go for something more challenging than a western-tech nation.


Discipline and Tactics are one and the same.

I haven't player a lower than Eastern tech country since 1.5 (had other goals such as WC in mind ) but even back then I could keep up in military tech with all but the most advanced nations as Chinese tech. And I didn't have National Focus and Power Projection
Tech is paramount and after a few spankings every diligent player focuses on keeping it on par.

That's why in such discussions I've found it's not productive to discuss about Tactics, which cannot be influenced in any way except for teching up (=mandatory anyway).

And Tactics does not increase your damage, unlike Discipline, if you want to nitpick

 

[Nutcracker]

I thought there is math involving new numbers to see
Well morale is always important since it determine both morale HP and morale damage, hence always the outcry about Elan. Back in the days there were +25% morale...

I'm not trying to say morale was never important.

I am simply observing relative to 1.7. In previous patches a single 10 - 0 combat total in a phase could have a massive effect on a battle, particularly early on. High casualties meant that the enemy would henceforth fight less effect as regiments got to low strength, causing a cascade effect that would often see them capitulate regardless of starting morale. Now that casualties are reduced, those big rolls have relatively less of an effect, meaning combat is more likely to grind out to a finish, with starting morale being the deciding factor.

In 1.7 when running a high general pip + terrain strategy (i.e luring big stack onto a smaller stack to get defense bonus, leading in general from neighbouring province to reinforce, i'd often not even have to worry about the enemy starting morale. One good roll and you could conceivably get a +12 or +14, cause 1500+ casualties a day to the enemy and decimate his stack. If they threw more in you'd have a meatgrinder effect as your pip superiority just did it's job. Now you're more likely to just back and forth roughly equal casualties phase after phase, +300 for him, +400 for you, +150 for him etc etc, with no single phase proving very decisive. Battles seem far less bloody now.

Bear in mind that i have only played up to 1550 so don't know how this relates to the later game.

This is not a criticism anyway, although i did think that 1.7 battles were fine though and can't understand the need to remove the exponential casualty scaling. I'm more interested in the effects on grand strategy and idea choice etc.

 

[oblio-]

1.7 was out of whack. With Plutocratic, Defensive, Defender of the Faith, max Prestige, max Power Projection (so awesome morale) and average generals (3/3 Fire/Shock) I got stack wiped several times by great generals (5/5). And that was 48k stack versus 48k stack, later in the game.

Morale actually hurt you more than it helped, unless you really had great pips (hence the necessity of Offensive) or uber discipline (Offensive, Quality, national ideas, events).

 

[spyroware1]

Well discipline is a percentage, you naturally get more returns out of it later in the game, when firepower is stacked and damage throughput can be sustained. Early game when your morale can drop like a sack of **** from lucky shock rolls your army won't be engaged for that long to see any appreciable benefit from discipline.

 

[dav77-b]

Tactics are the best value and disciplin boosts tactics...

 

[wickermoon]

I agree with oblio-. The current situation is much more pleasing than it was in 1.7. I actually think that it improved the game especially for smaller countries. For now, I like it. :3

 

[Ricox]

Discipline and Tactics are one and the same.

No, they're different stats. Discipline does give a boost to tactics, but its mainly gained from military tech.

 

[nouli]

And in 1.7 pips > discipline (2 extra pipes wiped out 10% discipline).

It seems to be the same right now. 1 pip seems to be worth around 6-7% of discipline. (if we consider average dmg in fight between armies with parameters like that (and a lot of different assumptions)).

I thought there is math involving new numbers to see
Well morale is always important since it determine both morale HP and morale damage, hence always the outcry about Elan. Back in the days there were +25% morale...

First somebody needs to figure out how exactly morale dmg is calculated. I wasn't able to fit it into wiki's equation with new base casualties function (but not a lot of tests, so I might be wrong).

 

[terminatordk]

It's not always that simple, as truly decent players go for something more challenging than a western-tech nation

or, if you actually want a real challenge, play multiplayer

 

[Osman Pasha]

I think morale is more important than discipline...France vs Sweden, who will win?

 

[Denkt]

The strange thing about moral is the more you get the more damage you do to the enemy, getting easy stack whipe is often better then just being able to kill alot.

 

[zodium]

With linearization of the base die tables, there is no longer an obvious 'king'. If I had to take a guess, the variable to optimize now will be a ratio or derivative of some kind, but I can't look at the math till around Christmas.

 

[ahyangyi]

With linearization of the base die tables, there is no longer an obvious 'king'. If I had to take a guess, the variable to optimize now will be a ratio or derivative of some kind, but I can't look at the math till around Christmas.

* Imagining zodium working at the combat math on Christmas day *