• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Noble Steel

Corporal
67 Badges
May 10, 2017
48
56
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
Greetings to the Paradox community! This will be the first of a series of posts wherein I attempt to suggest content and ways to improve upon and spice up the Americas with some grounded, historically based flavor and depth! Without further adieu, let's get right into with a new North American monument! I think it would be neat to have the abandoned Norse colony of L'anse aux Meadows be implemented as a monument in Province 981, Taqamkuk, respectively. The site is the only undisputed pre-Columbian Norse presence in the Americas and I think it should be locked behind Norse religion or being a Norweigan culture/colonial tag as hard requirements for it since its a bit of an easter egg, and fits in nicely with the norse flavor we got in the Lions of the North update. I think the bonuses it should grant would be changing the trade good of that province to iron rather than fish upon initial upgrade, and granting solely in that province a novel +.5/+1/+1.5 goods produced modifier that stacks with the grand banks fisheries event for a cumulative goods produced of 3.5+/tick. This would represent the iron working that is evidenced at the site in research such as this https://www.canadianmysteries.ca/sites/vinland/lanseauxmeadows/ironworking/indexen.html . I think the global modifiers should be extra colonial range, +5%/+10%/+15%, and/or maybe global ship repair +5%/+10%/+15% for all provinces in the state. If the devs went with locking this monument behind being Norse religion, I could see this monument raising marine force limit by a flat amount, perhaps +3/+6/+10 per tier. This is a relatively worthy effect for the religious prerequisites, similar to the
Baku Ateshgah monument with its absurd +10% discipline bonus alone. And this would represent well the fact that the L'Anse aux Meadows site served as an exploration base and winter camp for expeditions heading southward into the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Eleanor Barraclough, a lecturer in medieval history and literature at Durham University, suggests the site was not a permanent settlement, but was instead a temporary boat repair facility, thus why I included these aforementioned modifiers. I understand its not the most grandiose megalith or anything, but it reaches a standard of significance higher than some other obscure monuments included in the game--and hey, if we can have a Zoroastrian monument that almost never sees use by the AI, I ask, why not a Norse one? Would love to hear everyone's thoughts and feedback on this idea! Here is an image of how the monument's art could be depicted in-game, and a map depicting its location:
vinlandimage.png
3-Figure1-1.png
 
  • 3
Reactions:

DukeLeto42

Field Marshal
75 Badges
Mar 24, 2016
4.131
6.994
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
As much as I enjoy a good exploration of Norse history, absolutely not.

It's hard to call it a permanent settlement when from both textual and archaeological evidence it wasn't exactly long-lived on its own; "temporary boat repair facility" implies a place in a systematized process of Norse exploration that just didn't exist. As for its significance, it lies in the historical context of its existence, not the handful of foundations that are the site itself.

Furthermore, it is quite unlikely that it could have been identified as such in the period. L'Anse aux Meadows was discovered in the 1960s - it would be one thing it it were a 19th century discovery, but it wasn't. Unlike the big-ticket 19th century discoveries such as Troy or the Valley of the Kings, the documentation on the Vinland settlement was a handful of rumors of additional islands past Greenland (yes, islands; the Norse never knew they were on the edge of a massive continent) and there were no anticipated great treasures or discoveries.

To make matters worse, even the Greenland settlement was nigh-mythologized in this period. In 1605 and 1607 the Danish sent out expeditions to discover the fate of the Greenland colonies. Of course, the colonies were long gone, having been abandoned centuries earlier, something Denmark's Icelandic subjects probably suspected, as that's where most of the Greenland colonists who decided to pack up and leave probably ended up).



This all isn't to say that a fun event with a decently long MTTH for a Norse culture-group CN/overlord would be unreasonable - a description of the foundations discovered, no record of them being built by your colonists, a suggestion of Vinland, and a "Do we follow in our ancestors' footsteps?" dialogue option for a modest temporary buff would be fun. But to suggest that it gets a proper monument is something else entirely.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Noble Steel

Corporal
67 Badges
May 10, 2017
48
56
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Surviving Mars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
As much as I enjoy a good exploration of Norse history, absolutely not.

It's hard to call it a permanent settlement when from both textual and archaeological evidence it wasn't exactly long-lived on its own; "temporary boat repair facility" implies a place in a systematized process of Norse exploration that just didn't exist. As for its significance, it lies in the historical context of its existence, not the handful of foundations that are the site itself.

Furthermore, it is quite unlikely that it could have been identified as such in the period. L'Anse aux Meadows was discovered in the 1960s - it would be one thing it it were a 19th century discovery, but it wasn't. Unlike the big-ticket 19th century discoveries such as Troy or the Valley of the Kings, the documentation on the Vinland settlement was a handful of rumors of additional islands past Greenland (yes, islands; the Norse never knew they were on the edge of a massive continent) and there were no anticipated great treasures or discoveries.

To make matters worse, even the Greenland settlement was nigh-mythologized in this period. In 1605 and 1607 the Danish sent out expeditions to discover the fate of the Greenland colonies. Of course, the colonies were long gone, having been abandoned centuries earlier, something Denmark's Icelandic subjects probably suspected, as that's where most of the Greenland colonists who decided to pack up and leave probably ended up).



This all isn't to say that a fun event with a decently long MTTH for a Norse culture-group CN/overlord would be unreasonable - a description of the foundations discovered, no record of them being built by your colonists, a suggestion of Vinland, and a "Do we follow in our ancestors' footsteps?" dialogue option for a modest temporary buff would be fun. But to suggest that it gets a proper monument is something else entirely.
Your points are taken well and have clear merit in terms of historicity, but I would only respond with the "rule of cool" or fun factor-- a smaller event as u described may be more fitting. My only gripes would be that cahokia and mesa verde get the dignity of monument treatment despite being abandoned, forgotten, and and mostly destroyed for multiple centuries before game start. I personally still enjoy their inclusion as both educationally valuable, and more in depth exploration/opportunities for plausible alt-history/what-if content/scenarios. Not trying to argue mere semantics with you, but would you not consider the site to be a "monumental" discovery? If we have monuments that reach the standard of inclusion that are just mountains and geographic features alone, I dont think suggesting something like this or Uluru is absurd at face value. I agree that its discovery was unlikely and the site remained elusive, but this is ultimately within an historical sim that both supposes, entertains, and challenges a Ryukan conquest of the world. Appreciate your time reading and the thoughtful response. Part of the crux of my issue is Paradox's inconsistent/unclear philosophy of what can and cant be included in the game as a monument. Cheers.
 

DukeLeto42

Field Marshal
75 Badges
Mar 24, 2016
4.131
6.994
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
To that, I'd respond that the discovery was monumental, but the site itself not so much.

Sites like Cahokia and Mesa Verde were not only past centers of real political power, that in a centralizing Native American society could potentially serve as such again, but they also served as North American counters to European narratives that indigenous peoples were incapable of being "civilized" societies.