Monument Redesign - reverse cause and effect

[Spartakus]

Greetings everyone. I think it's fair to say that monuments as described in the latest dev diary have been poorly recieved. However, most proposed different implementations boil down to simply granting prestige. While I find that preferable to the current implementation, it's a bit problematic because there is already a building for that in the game - art academies.

The other frequent solution - leave them out entirely is also not ideal. as the devs put it:

As I see it, the trick with both monuments and characters is to sprinkle them into the gameplay for flavor and historical immersion, without making them so central and important mechanically that they start to dominate. Because yes you're right, we want to tell the story of the many social and economic forces that shaped our modern world, not about how some particular genius statesman or destined nation made the world their oyster. But it'd be a poor decision, I think, to leave them out of the game altogether!

So, here's a different idea that combines with the Journal system: Monuments aren't something you build to get a lasting buff - they are requirements for completing journal entries. You want to get a certain reward for completing a Journal entry - or avoid a penalty? You better build a monument so the world (and your own pops) can see the glory of your nation. As this essentially means that every nation should be able to build monuments at certain points, so we do need a couple generic monuments that can be placed just like normal buildings anywhere on the map. Victory statues, great temples, Skyscrapers, Olympic stadions, etc. They don't need to be placed by hand because while we would expect to see the Statue of Liberty on Liberty Island, we can pretty much agree that the Schaumburg-Lippe-Olympia-Stadion could have been placed anywehere.
Conquering a state with a monument in it would then be pretty pointless because the Journal entry required BUILDING a monument and not conquering one.

Still, monuments should not be completely interchangeable and provide benefits after building. But by keeping those minor we avoid generating buildings that would justify going to war just for their control. The white house for example should provide burocracy, but just a flat production, not a percentual bonus. Vatican City or the Eiffel Tower may provide services for example.

So what about monuments that already exist at game start? Well, while building a monument should be expensive - upgrading one can give the same result while being significantly cheaper. Angkor Wat can be restored, the West Wing can be added to the White House, the Via della Concialiazone lead to Vatican City or it can be repurposed into a temple for a different religion - or a museum. The Hagia Sophia likewise can get a renovation, become a museum or be turned into a christian basilica again.
Again - this should be desirable enough to use it, but not so much that it's woth going to war over it.

Spoiler: Example for clarification

Let's take the Eiffel Tower as an example. For the sake of the argument let's make up some bonuses under the current system and assume that the Eiffel Tower gives a 10% boost to technology spread and that it can be build after a world's fair - event. Afterward simply having the Tower would grant the technology spread. Again, I have made these up, but I don't think it's too far removed from the White House / Vatican bonuses.

Under the system I proposed the important stuff would happen all under a journal entry "World's Fair". Completing the Journal Entry would give a minor technology boost. For the whole 10% you would need to build a monument and spend a significant amount of resources on that. However, as it's the Journal Entry that gives the bonus and not the monument itself, the bonus can therefore be TEMPORARY. A couple years later, the bonus would be gone.
More importantly, should Prussia conquer Paris, they would get themselfes a glorified radio tower. The effect of the world's fair is tied to the french tag as they are the ones who completed the journal entry and built the tower.
Similarly, any nation can theoratically make a world's fair and build a (generic) monument with slightly different effects (Maybe a smaller bonus, but also at reduced cost for example). Or not building a monument at all and left wondering if the world's fair was worth the effort, as happened with New South Wales for example.

 

[Spartakus]

Hmm, I was hoping for at least a little bit of feedback.

 

[Hawke06]

The Hagia Sophia likewise can get a renovation, become a museum or be turned into a christian basilica again.

A neat idea - question is, does it provide any bonuses at the game start?

 

[Spartakus]

A neat idea - question is, does it provide any bonuses at the game start?

Well, it is a building and pop working in it should do something. I think it could work like your standard art academy or something.

 

[Atey]

So, here's a different idea that combines with the Journal system: Monuments aren't something you build to get a lasting buff - they are requirements for completing journal entries. You want to get a certain reward for completing a Journal entry - or avoid a penalty? You better build a monument so the world (and your own pops) can see the glory of your nation. As this essentially means that every nation should be able to build monuments at certain points, so we do need a couple generic monuments that can be placed just like normal buildings anywhere on the map. Victory statues, great temples, Skyscrapers, Olympic stadions, etc.

Yeah, I like that a lot better than the devs' proposition. Monuments should mostly just affect people's perception of a country or a place. They can of course give various minor flat boni within reasonable bounds. I also find the mention of Olympic stadia quite lovely and I hope we see them in the game.

 

[Mayernik311]

So, here's a different idea that combines with the Journal system: Monuments aren't something you build to get a lasting buff - they are requirements for completing journal entries. You want to get a certain reward for completing a Journal entry - or avoid a penalty? You better build a monument so the world (and your own pops) can see the glory of your nation. As this essentially means that every nation should be able to build monuments at certain points, so we do need a couple generic monuments that can be placed just like normal buildings anywhere on the map. Victory statues, great temples, Skyscrapers, Olympic stadions, etc. They don't need to be placed by hand because while we would expect to see the Statue of Liberty on Liberty Island, we can pretty much agree that the Schaumburg-Lippe-Olympia-Stadion could have been placed anywehere.
Conquering a state with a monument in it would then be pretty pointless because the Journal entry required BUILDING a monument and not conquering one.

I quite like this proposal and would like to add that "destroying" monuments could also be a requirement for certain journal entries. For example, imagine of the CSA were to occupy Washington and burn the White House, that would impact public perceptions of the war and might enable an easier change in conscription laws.

Overall though, linking monuments in with the journal system opens up lots of possibilities and clearly distinguishes them from "normal" buildings.

 

[Azkiol]

Greetings everyone. I think it's fair to say that monuments as described in the latest dev diary have been poorly recieved. However, most proposed different implementations boil down to simply granting prestige. While I find that preferable to the current implementation, it's a bit problematic because there is already a building for that in the game - art academies.

The other frequent solution - leave them out entirely is also not ideal. as the devs put it:

So, here's a different idea that combines with the Journal system: Monuments aren't something you build to get a lasting buff - they are requirements for completing journal entries. You want to get a certain reward for completing a Journal entry - or avoid a penalty? You better build a monument so the world (and your own pops) can see the glory of your nation. As this essentially means that every nation should be able to build monuments at certain points, so we do need a couple generic monuments that can be placed just like normal buildings anywhere on the map. Victory statues, great temples, Skyscrapers, Olympic stadions, etc. They don't need to be placed by hand because while we would expect to see the Statue of Liberty on Liberty Island, we can pretty much agree that the Schaumburg-Lippe-Olympia-Stadion could have been placed anywehere.
Conquering a state with a monument in it would then be pretty pointless because the Journal entry required BUILDING a monument and not conquering one.

Still, monuments should not be completely interchangeable and provide benefits after building. But by keeping those minor we avoid generating buildings that would justify going to war just for their control. The white house for example should provide burocracy, but just a flat production, not a percentual bonus. Vatican City or the Eiffel Tower may provide services for example.

So what about monuments that already exist at game start? Well, while building a monument should be expensive - upgrading one can give the same result while being significantly cheaper. Angkor Wat can be restored, the West Wing can be added to the White House, the Via della Concialiazone lead to Vatican City or it can be repurposed into a temple for a different religion - or a museum. The Hagia Sophia likewise can get a renovation, become a museum or be turned into a christian basilica again.
Again - this should be desirable enough to use it, but not so much that it's woth going to war over it.

I feel like this could also work well with production methods. "Want to complete this journal entry? You need to build the Eiffel tower and use it as a radio station. Don't have radio? Build factories or open trade routes..." Could add an extra dimension to the decision to research a tech or build a building.

 

[mergele]

I'm not sure what the difference is?

You build a monument, you get a bonus.
vs
You build a monument, you get a bonus from the completed journal.

Seems to just add another step in the interface, more journalbloat and less visibility for the effects.

 

[luxfelix]

Regarding the Statue of Liberty:

Before it was the symbol for immigration, it was a memorial to the alliance between the American & French people (there's a matching miniature version in France).

As such, I imagine the journal entry to build it should require America & France maintain good relations throughout its construction, whatever prerequisite technology/industry to manufacture it, as well access to the copper (game good equivalent) and relevant capacity expenditure.

The buff would likely be something like a slower relationship decay between America & France or something initially. At some point in the journal entry, the opportunity to commission a commemorative poem could add a secondary meaning to the statue.

For example, the historical poem would first require crossing a certain threshold of immigration before it can become a buff for increased immigration target chance (or something); if America works towards women's suffrage early, maybe the commemorative poem instead colors the statues meaning to slightly increase women's suffrage fervor in all nations within the American market; if America takes on the mantle of global emancipator (forces a certain number of nations to abolish slavery), then the poem could evangelize devout pops to travel to remaining slaver nations to agitate for freedom (stirring the pot for better or worse).

 

[Spartakus]

I'm not sure what the difference is?

You build a monument, you get a bonus.
vs
You build a monument, you get a bonus from the completed journal.

Seems to just add another step in the interface, more journalbloat and less visibility for the effects.

I shall clarify then:
Let's take the Eiffel Tower as an example. For the sake of the argument let's make up some bonuses under the current system and assume that the Eiffel Tower gives a 10% boost to technology spread and that it can be build after a world's fair - event. Afterward simply having the Tower would grant the technology spread. Again, I have made these up, but I don't think it's too far removed from the White House / Vatican bonuses.

Under the system I proposed the important stuff would happen all under a journal entry "World's Fair". Completing the Journal Entry would give a minor technology boost. For the whole 10% you would need to build a monument and spend a significant amount of resources on that. However, as it's the Journal Entry that gives the bonus and not the monument itself, the bonus can therefore be TEMPORARY. A couple years later, the bonus would be gone.
More importantly, should Prussia conquer Paris, they would get themselfes a glorified radio tower. The effect of the world's fair is tied to the french tag as they are the ones who completed the journal entry and built the tower.
Similarly, any nation can theoratically make a world's fair and build a (generic) monument with slightly different effects (Maybe a smaller bonus, but also at reduced cost for example). Or not building a monument at all and left wondering if the world's fair was worth the effort, as happened with New South Wales for example.

 

[Esben_DRK]

I like this idea far better than the developers', or the others I have seen. However, for canals (Which really are tied to controlling the physical area) this wouldn't work, and I would prefer canals to be more alike what the developers have already proposed.

The important bit to avoid is the weird and apparently magical effect of conquering a building entirely unrelated to your country or culture, which then gives arbitrary bonuses. An event that is temporary will remove the conquest aspect and make it appear more as a cultural emphasis. To continue with your Eiffel Tower example, it becomes a flowering of the arts and sciences in the French Nation, tied to what is happening in the country, rather than citizens in Marseilles and Bordeaux being inspired by a building in Paris. I know that moving it from the physical building to the journal entry can seem like a minor thing, but to me it's the attention to the possibility of immersion; one is a causeless effect, the other is a clearer cause. Furthermore, if it's temporary then France will have to bid and host again to get the benefits -- AS HAPPENED! France hosted 4, planned to host 5 times in V3's timeline (5th Fair was in 1937, but location was decided within the timeframe) counting from Wikipedia -- which means you need to continually keep up your efforts to be a worthy host, prestigious and wealthy enough to be selected over your competitors.

And of course I think it's a benefit that you're not proposing an entirely new system, but one that ties what they've already made (Monuments as buildings, specifically arts academies) into what they've also made (Journal system).

I'm a fan, to put it short.

 

[Spartakus]

I like this idea far better than the developers', or the others I have seen. However, for canals (Which really are tied to controlling the physical area) this wouldn't work, and I would prefer canals to be more alike what the developers have already proposed.

The important bit to avoid is the weird and apparently magical effect of conquering a building entirely unrelated to your country or culture, which then gives arbitrary bonuses. An event that is temporary will remove the conquest aspect and make it appear more as a cultural emphasis. To continue with your Eiffel Tower example, it becomes a flowering of the arts and sciences in the French Nation, tied to what is happening in the country, rather than citizens in Marseilles and Bordeaux being inspired by a building in Paris. I know that moving it from the physical building to the journal entry can seem like a minor thing, but to me it's the attention to the possibility of immersion; one is a causeless effect, the other is a clearer cause. Furthermore, if it's temporary then France will have to bid and host again to get the benefits -- AS HAPPENED! France hosted 4, planned to host 5 times in V3's timeline (5th Fair was in 1937, but location was decided within the timeframe) counting from Wikipedia -- which means you need to continually keep up your efforts to be a worthy host, prestigious and wealthy enough to be selected over your competitors.

And of course I think it's a benefit that you're not proposing an entirely new system, but one that ties what they've already made (Monuments as buildings, specifically arts academies) into what they've also made (Journal system).

I'm a fan, to put it short.

Well, there's no reason not to have it both ways. You can keep all the code for existing monuments in place and for monuments where a permanent effect is really tied to the location itself you should. Canals are certainly one example, Mecca is another as someone in another thread correctly stated.
All you need to do is to move the effect of monuments that don't belong into this category into a journal entry where it can be tied with a clear cause as you phrased it. And a timer.

It's not like the monuments can't have further use as buildings. No one would complain if the White House would essentially be a really good government admin building.

 

[luxfelix]

I shall clarify then:
Let's take the Eiffel Tower as an example. For the sake of the argument let's make up some bonuses under the current system and assume that the Eiffel Tower gives a 10% boost to technology spread and that it can be build after a world's fair - event. Afterward simply having the Tower would grant the technology spread. Again, I have made these up, but I don't think it's too far removed from the White House / Vatican bonuses.

Under the system I proposed the important stuff would happen all under a journal entry "World's Fair". Completing the Journal Entry would give a minor technology boost. For the whole 10% you would need to build a monument and spend a significant amount of resources on that. However, as it's the Journal Entry that gives the bonus and not the monument itself, the bonus can therefore be TEMPORARY. A couple years later, the bonus would be gone.
More importantly, should Prussia conquer Paris, they would get themselfes a glorified radio tower. The effect of the world's fair is tied to the french tag as they are the ones who completed the journal entry and built the tower.
Similarly, any nation can theoratically make a world's fair and build a (generic) monument with slightly different effects (Maybe a smaller bonus, but also at reduced cost for example). Or not building a monument at all and left wondering if the world's fair was worth the effort, as happened with New South Wales for example.

The Prussians would also receive the option to complete the Eiffel Tower because here it is today and the French still haven't gotten around to finishing it.