Mongols......Need some tweaks.....

[Hootieleece]

In a game continued from 1.07b.I am King of France.(Most of Modern France and 2/3 of Low countries and Austria)I am third biggest realm in Game 285 holdings,110k Army(according to new Independent States ledger) in 1285.

I am part of a Crusade for Poland.The Golden Horde conquered it (after conversion to 1.08)from King of Bohemia and didn't take King title.So winning Crusade will give him back his lands.

According to Independent States ledger Golden Horde has 394 holdings and 105k army.Problem:The army stat doesn't count the "Free Superdoomstack"of 121K that it has had since arrival on map in 1216.

Even if I raise All my levies......and march them across Germany.I can't even get 1 to 1 odds against that doomstack.(too many troops die of attrition)and when i do we lose badly to them 100k+French troops against 121k Mongols(60k HA and 40k LC) I lose to the last man. and they lose 10k tops.(thats with me having 20Martial defensive leaders and Mongols having Imbeciles in charge)


also If Mongols win an invasion(they won't strip titles from human player)but they will from ALL surrounding AI players thus forcing player to become Mongol/Tengri to survive/thrive.

fighting their "normal troops" would be bad enough.

Like there is a chance for event to have horde appear......There needs to be a event that has a chance to fire.....that removes the "attritionless super doomstack from map" otherwise unless player is extremely lucky and Skilled the Hordes cannot be defeated.

Yes I know,there are always people posting "Nerf the Mongols,Fatimids,Aztecs,Etc."

I consider myself a intermediate player......I can beat the AI if it doesn't out number me greatly....or have an unfair advantage(see above)


In other threads i have complained about Manpower and Retinue numbers.....being unrealistic.

Well if were gonna play WWII while dressed up Medeival style at least allow everyone to suffer ATTRITION.

 

[gornard]

I think alot of people agree with you.

I think for those people who like the unfair challange as it is they could leave a superdoomstack horde tick box somewhere on the character select screen.

 

[kingsword]

I don't see why the players expect to always win. Mongols came and you know, nobody won versus them. Perhaps that's working as intended. A battle for survival I can sympathize with but an offensive crusade.. Just accept the loss and move on. They eventually dismantle, as it was in history.

 

[nestorius]

I am ok with Mongols being hard as they were earlier, but I am not ok with them being unbeatable as they are now. Yes you can beat them by going round the back due to their poor ai but it really shouldnt be like that.

The Mongols were beaten in battle a few times so it really isnt realistic to have a 120 k doomstack that you cannot beat, mostly due to teh attrition.

 

[kingsword]

IIRC, they were only defeated once by the Mamluks in their heyday, so it's rather historical for everyone else to flat out lose.

To be honest, I can't feel threatened by them as it is, they're not aggressive enough and seem content with taking easternmost part of the map and then waste time with defending another pagan until they drown in rebellions. I have yet to see them threaten even Central Europe.

 

[Zireael]

The Battle of Legnica IIRC wasn't a clear loss, and yes, the Mameluks did defeat the Mongols once or twice.

The doomstacks should be split or reduced and they should suffer attrition. Maybe get a bonus to withstanding it, but definitely should suffer from it.

 

[gornard]

IIRC, they were only defeated once by the Mamluks in their heyday, so it's rather historical for everyone else to flat out lose.

This isn't about what happend, its about what could happen. If william won the norman invasion, does that mean the game should endevour to make it inevitable? Everyone knows the mongols were strong, but they operated under the same physical extremes as everyone else. They shouldn't be able to march a 100k army around with no attrition. It makes it impossible to beat them.

To be honest, I can't feel threatened by them as it is, they're not aggressive enough and seem content with taking easternmost part of the map and then waste time with defending another pagan until they drown in rebellions. I have yet to see them threaten even Central Europe.

Thats all well and good but if you intend to play anything east of the HRE you are very lucky if you don't get eaten and there is nothing you can do about it if they choose to attack you.

 

[Fishman786]

Mongol 'Doomstacks' should be the same size as regular armies, but composed of good soldiers and lead by good generals. And also immune to attrition outside of mountains or other hostile terrain. No more 120k armies.

 

[nestorius]

I fully accept that the Mongols should be hard but there is a difference between a hard foe and a foe that is impossible.

Just to put it in context the CK2 map united under 1 empire would lose versus the mongols in a battle, probably in a war also. It makes no sense.

If I attack the HRE as Poland and it is not horribly involved in rebellions and other wars I will almost surely lose. But it wont be because it is impossible in every way to win.

A 120 k doomstack cannot be killed as you can never get 120 k troops in one place and allow them to survive for more than a few days. This means the whole setup is stupid.

 

[grumphie]

as the devs said,

gameplay>history

this is one fine example where history just isnt that fun. sure, mongols should be hell. you should fear them. but they shouldnt be liekt hey are now. your only HOPE on defeatign them is makig a huge empire, luring them to the sea, and drop all your troops on him with your navy. and that only works if you got godly leaders, they dont, and you outnumber them like 5 times.

balancing them would go a whole way if:
1. warscore didnt rack up such ridiculously faast for faraway empires. so, you captured large parts of mesopotamia. im the frankish empire of western europe. we didnt even meet in battle yet. my armies just landed in jeruzalem and are nwo marchign to you to kick your ass. you DONT got 100% warscore! reducing warscore gain of holdings for large(300+) realms would help a long way in general with early ended wars

2. yes, mongols WERE fearsome. but they werent fearsome in a way of sending 10 tumens in one area to battle a large restored roman empire. nor should they team up those forces in one stack. give mongols a flat supply bonus(so doomstacks are still large, but not impossibly large). also, them sending 10 elite tumens into western europe is a tad ahistorical. they won their wars while being outnmbered against weak decentralised states not prepared for them. they certainly werent stupid enough to attack a huge restored roman empire without at the least a large amoutn of fodder troops. so troopswise:
1. reduce the amoutn of troops they get. no problem with them having hellish nightmarestacks of utter doom if theyre of a managable size.
2. dont allow the AI to attack large realms(HRE, strong ERE, strong FATAMIDS/successor, united russia) without an event(i.e. great khan calls on a conquest of X), for which they get additional stacks spawned, and a large bunch of fodder siege troop stacks. this should be awfull to beat, and should simulate the fact that while the mongols wer efearsome, they didnt JUST attack a huge realm(i.e. china) without proper backup.
3. reduce ssupplylimit from infitite to a like 20K bonus. this should break up their strong HA stacks to a size thats managable, but still walks over unprepared enemies.