Mongolian Rape of Central Asia

[HisMajestyBOB]

I read in one of my historical books that the Mongol devastation of Central Asia is still seen today in the poorness of the region. I know they basically leveled the silk road cities, but could the poorness of the region really be attributed solely to the Mongols? I would think that the Soviets might share the blame too. Or maybe the area's just plain desert and thus nigh worthless?

 

[unmerged(5773)]

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
I read in one of my historical books that the Mongol devastation of Central Asia is still seen today in the poorness of the region. I know they basically leveled the silk road cities, but could the poorness of the region really be attributed solely to the Mongols? I would think that the Soviets might share the blame too. Or maybe the area's just plain desert and thus nigh worthless?

Well, some blame the poverty of southern Italy on Hannibal, and that was over twice as long ago.

Solely to the Mongols? No. Obviously much of the region is desert, the Mongols didn't affect global weather patterns. Also, the Mongols were nomads, so they didn't stay in one area for extended times, taking time to devistate it (like H). They were efficient at what they did, supposidly leveling cities such that a horseman traveling over the sight would not hove his horse trip on any stones.

As for the Soviets, I don't think we know long term what the effects of their occupation are. Certainly, they have destroyed the Aral Sea, at least.

 

[unmerged(4944)]

I don't think the Mongols affected the general prosperity of the area, it probably increased in the short term, they didn't kill you if you paid your taxes....except...i know there were several smaller regions which Genghis ordered devastated to create unpopulated buffers.

I think Tamerlane was much more wantonly destructive, but that was through india/seasia which seems to have been too heavily populated to be permanantly affected. Baghdad was also savaged, but again seemed to regenerate.

PS The poverty of southern italy is these days blamed on the norman occupation, which enforced feudalism on the region longer than in the city state north.

PPS I thoroughly recommend "A Green History of the World" by Clive Ponting, which examines the impact of environmental changes on the rise and fall of empires throughout history.

 

[Malthus]

In some areas, such as in parts of Iran, the country was devistated long-term by the Mongols. The reason, apparently, is that much of these areas was irrigated by extremely complex irrigation systems. The Mongols destroyed these & they were never rebuilt.

 

[unmerged(3708)]

Re: Re: Mongolian Rape of Central Asia

Originally posted by Africanus



Solely to the Mongols? No. Obviously much of the region is desert, the Mongols didn't affect global weather patterns.

I don't know about that. The dispersal of equine flatulence over a large area of Asia may have affected the balance of gasses in the atmosphere and caused the Little Ice Age.

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by Malthus
In some areas, such as in parts of Iran, the country was devistated long-term by the Mongols. The reason, apparently, is that much of these areas was irrigated by extremely complex irrigation systems. The Mongols destroyed these & they were never rebuilt.

Drat, someone got in with the qanats first! Yes, their destruction did wreck the economy of large parts of the Iranian plateau (and some other areas) permanently. Anyone who knows the pre-Mongol prominence of these regions would believe that.

There's a few areas of the world where invaders wrecking the irrigation systems have permanently changed regions though.........

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Agelastus


Drat, someone got in with the qanats first! Yes, their destruction did wreck the economy of large parts of the Iranian plateau (and some other areas) permanently. Anyone who knows the pre-Mongol prominence of these regions would believe that.

There's a few areas of the world where invaders wrecking the irrigation systems have permanently changed regions though.........

Like in north Africa...

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by Maur13
Like in north Africa...

Bingo! That's the main one I was thinking of.

Carthage and environs, in fact much of Roman Africa, were one of Rome's richest provinces (well, not really comparable to Egypt, but then which province was?) and it's considered in some spheres that the loss of the province to the Vandals was the ultimate nail in the coffin of the western Empire, sending it into the abyss beyond recovery. Yet these days those regions are hardly excessively fertile..................

 

[unmerged(5773)]

Originally posted by Agelastus

Carthage and environs, in fact much of Roman Africa, were one of Rome's richest provinces (well, not really comparable to Egypt, but then which province was?) and it's considered in some spheres that the loss of the province to the Vandals was the ultimate nail in the coffin of the western Empire, sending it into the abyss beyond recovery. Yet these days those regions are hardly excessively fertile..................

That wasn't all caused by humans, though. The coast of the Med (African side) used to be very fertile, even in areas like today's Libya that are now desert. The Sahara is continuing to expand north and south, it has now reached the Med, whereas it didn't 2000 years ago. Irrigation still requires a large source of water, and I don't think there is one there now.

 

[unmerged(2539)]

I recall it was the goats fault, they were brought in in large numbers and they hastned the arid conditions expansion. Vandelay is an expert in this field i recall, ill email him.

Hanny

 

[HisMajestyBOB]

Didn't the Romans cut down all the trees in Libya, which helped to make it an arid wasteland?

 

[unmerged(4944)]

Sicily also, as I'm sure you know, was very fertile back then...

 

[Agelastus]

Re: Re: Mongolian Rape of Central Asia

Originally posted by Africanus
Well, some blame the poverty of southern Italy on Hannibal, and that was over twice as long ago.

Hmmm...........others regard Sulla as the main culprit, in the aftermath of his return from Greece, since much of the most determined resistance to his return was in the areas of southern italy, and he appears to have avenged himself, one might say. Certainly the Samnite lands were devastated.

Greece's deforestation can be blamed, perhaps, on ancient shipbuilding-I can't recall what the conventional wisdom for the increasing dessication of Sicily is...............

 

[pithorr]

Originally posted by HisMajestyBOB
Didn't the Romans cut down all the trees in Libya, which helped to make it an arid wasteland?

Hm, as I remember Western Libya (Tripolitania) was rather desert already in Roman times with some fine cities like Leptis Magna, Cyrenaica was and still remains fertile...
However, main "Roman granary" of North Africa was present Tunisia...

 

[unmerged(3004)]

How about Andalusia after the reconquista and the Armada?

 

[Vandelay]

Vandelay is an expert in this field i recall, ill email him.

I´m pretty good at Carthaginian religion, but Nort African post-Roman climate change...

Anyway, my two cents:

As in many cases there are probably a lot of factors involved (rather than Blame the Vandals or Blame the Mongols):

Warefare, certainly. In most time-periods endemic. Systematic destruction of the enemys economical foundation is traditional...

Political disintegration - irrigation systems demand a lot of maintenance (e.g. to counter rising salt-levels in the water) and is in archaeological interpretation closely linked to the development of the state and its requisite beurocracy.

Deforestation and overgrazing - adversely affects humidity on the micro-level and lack of trees or shrubs causes soil to literally blow away.

Agricultaral technique and system - single-crop dependent systems (e.g. cereal growing Roman Africa or cotton growing Soviet Central Asia) are fragile not only ecologically but economically compared to multi-crop systems.

AFAIK macro-climate has not changed much in the last 2500 years and I think the human factor in desertification is much more decisive than climatological factors.

/Vandelay

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by Vandelay
As in many cases there are probably a lot of factors involved (rather than Blame the Vandals or Blame the Mongols):

I was blaming the Arabs for North Africa actually...............

Still, you're quite correct that specific climate changes are normally explained by more general changes of natural origins. But in marginal areas it's quite easy to tip the balance into catastrophe, and the Iranian plateau almost certainly counts as one such area.

 

[Vandelay]

I was blaming the Arabs for North Africa actually...............

IMHO the fault lies squarely on the Jewish Negro Communist Masonian Gay Conspiracy I´m a certified member, you know...

I know little of the Iranian high-plateau, but in Mesopotamia proper the usual interpretation of the fact that substantially larger irrigation systems were in use in Sassanid times than in Parthian times is due to the more effective beurocracy and political centralization of the Sassanids.

On a side-note why didn´t the Safavids rebuild the irrigation systems of the plateau???

I´m sure also sure that climate has had an effect on micro-scale and there have been temprorary "little ice-ages" (e.g. 1300´s and 1600´s AD Europe), but I don´t think the world has seen substantial climatic change on the macro-level for the last 2500 years (we´re probably inducing on right now though...).

/Vandelay

 

[Agelastus]

Originally posted by Vandelay
On a side-note why didn´t the Safavids rebuild the irrigation systems of the plateau???

Expense-the irrigation system had been built up for literally thousands of years-Qanats and the irrigation canals are expensive long-term projects, and the Mongols effectively reduced the area back to stage one. Even if the Safavids had made a determined effort to repair the system, it probably wouldn't have been finished in centuries. A lot of the local experts who ran it were killed by the Mongols as well, creating a "knowledge gap", I believe.........

 

[unmerged(4944)]

Had a quick look at the earlier mentioned book, and it appears deforestation was the major factor in the meditteranean region. There used to be considerable forests from morocco to persia, and lebanon was famous for its cedar forests. What we know as med. crops is due to the collapse of the earlier ecosystems, olives for example becoming popular because they were the only thing that could grow on soil denuded limestone rocky hills...there are even references in plato & other greek histories to the problem.