Have others found that the 1205 Scenario crashes in the 1230's? Has this been addressed? Is this also the case with the 1150 Scenario?
No worries, I'm only somewhat time-bounded right now (and cannot get online as much as I wanted to).Semi-Lobster said:Oh, I was getting worried you forgot about our discussion! It's really interesting!
Well, two different things here. One thing is a Mon-state and a different thing is a Mon-cultured province. Now I have less issues with expanding the Mon-cultured area if needed, although again the eu-map is simply not really helping here (also I DO think Mon has now 2 or 3 provinces at the start...). But so Lampang province could be made Mon and change only later to Thai by events. It is a different thing though to include a ghost-state - basically all my online searches on this topic (as I could not find it in any of my univs library books, other than info on its 7th and 8th century period) give that same notice - cultural golden age for the city till its fall to Thais in 1281. Even if we might doubt that all the area around Lampun was Thai in 1150 we hardly can doubt it for 1281 so where is there any place left for a country of any importance which is not Thai, Pagan or Khmer? Especially if we concern us with the also repeating remark that 'no sources indicate any notes on warfare for that period' (thus after fall of Davarati in 11th cent) - how could the Thai expand without warfare throughout a state like Haripujaya for over 100 years, while forming their own states? The example of how it went in Pagan and Khmer is totally different - here it is a permanent state of war!From my sources Haripunjaya and was an independent Mon kingdom until 1281 when the main city of Lamphun was besieged by the Thais and it lost territory to Pagan and Khmer. From what I've read about the Several kingdom is very confusing, some say Haripunjaya and Several where Mon city states, other say it was one kingdom but I'm leading towards a more principality status as you suggested, either way, seeing as how Several Mon culture continued until the fall of the principality some kind of Mon entity should be present and there should certainly be more then one Mon province.
Well, I'm do not doubt that Mons were there before Thais - Thais were sort of the last group actually immigrating into these lands. The point is how this situation looked in 1150-1200 period (we cannot of course pinpoint anything such abstract as ethnic movements to a single year-date, not mention the lack of such accurate information) and whether Mons were still a very strong culture in 'Thailand' (geographically speaking). They certainly become more important by then in 'Burma' though.All of South East Asia was heavily Indianised and MES has addressed this amongst many others, by giving the South East Asian countries, the Indian sprite, the Mon where the inhabitants of Haripunjaya and Several with an emphasis on Indianised since they where the first to convert to Buddhism from India and where integral in the diffusion of Indian culture and cultural values into the region. The Thai's couldn't have been around there for much longer then the Mon because the Mon had been there since the 9 BC and established their Mon kingdoms sometime after the 6th Century.
But that is thus unlikely to happen considering the few info on such a still surviving Mon-stateAs for the Khmer and Mon culture, perhaps your right, gameplay wise that would let Angkor expand a lot more then it actually did , especially since Angkor should be focused more on the Cham. Although a Mon country would probably be two or three provinces.
True, but now we are talking about the post-Pagan period - it were all these 'new' cultures (both Mon's in the south and Thais in the east in that case) that destroyed Pagan Empire rather than became 'familiar' with it. These new states influenced by the new cultures are post-Pagan states like Ava, Pegu and other and they are meant to be simulated as such, with possibly all necessary cultural changes made by then. For the early Pagan Empire it makes no sense imo.Giving Mon culture to Pagan makes perfect sense when you see that Burmese Pagan assimilated into (at the time) more affluent Mon culture.
I have no scanner, but that's not relevant I think: you have to realize a different thing here, namely the 'numbers' rather than 'existence' only. The Thai immigration was rather big as a total - the ancestral lands of Thais were much bigger than only 'Nan Chao' and they were quite able to actually exist as a huge population - bigger than many of the mountain people they encountered in the upper-Mekong lands. Their culture was also that of conquest and expansion and they were moving all by themselves for a very long period before 1200, eventually thus arriving in the 'empty' upper Mekong where they menaged to became quickly the biggest population only by their original numbers. Of course the fall of Nan Chao helped even more - now much of the restant moved into the south as well - that restant being still huge enough to change the ethnicity of most of Indochina instantly.If you have a scanner I'd like to see your maps, the Thai's did not expand that quickly as both you and I stated the catalyst was the Mongol invasion which forced the Thais to accelerate their migration down the Mekong, as I stated before the existing inhabitants where Karen (never densely populated so maybe you have the point in the northern most province) and the Mon who certainly should be there, I'm not on my home computer right now so I can't have a look at the map to refresh my memory on which provinces are where unfortunately.
dharper said:I'd like the player to have a hard time keeping the empire. Large-scale revolts, loss of shields, etc.
I'd also like the player to choose to become one of the hordes. I understand that this is difficult! But I assume you could make this happen with only two events:
1) "Initial Disintegration of the Mongol Hordes" (MONGOLS) - Player chooses which horde to become. Change nation to that country name. Then create the Mongol Horde (original horde) and secede all provinces to them except your base ones.
2) "Further disintegration of the Mongol Hordes" (MONGOLS) - The computer AI now automatically makes the other hordes independent and gives them their provinces.
Damn, Sire Philippe, will you ever stop to change everything upside down?Sire Philippe said:Far more, I'm about changing completely the sequence for the Plantagenêt Empire
mfigueras said:Damn, Sire Philippe, will you ever stop to change everything upside down?![]()
Sire Philippe said:To inform you a little, here is the sequence of events - the goal was of course to improve historically the anglo-norman invasion, but my sources (only generic internet sites) and my point of view are without doubt contestables.
a) firstly, the initial setup : Ulster (the Ailach seem to have the High Kingship at the beginning) has Meath and Munster as vassals, and dynastic alliances with Connacht and Leinster.
b) in 1166, Ruaidrí macToirrdelbaig becomes High King : Ulster lost his vassals.
Connacht has the choice to demand vassalisations to other principalties, or only keep dynastic alliances. The others decide to accept or to resist.
c) except if Leinster accept to submit, Dermot McMurrough's revolt is opening in 1170. If Connacht respond by war, McMurrough can call for help. This will give him the leader Pembroke and powerful troops...
d) Some years later if Pembroke is in Ireland, Henry II can recall to him who is the master... then Leinster has to decide between annexation to the Plantagenêt Empire, becoming a vassal (culture changed to french), preserve authonomy (but now as a norman principalty) or - fantasy one ! - revolt and attempt to crush norman mercenaries...![]()
As I said, it was really done after a quick overview, and I have probably made several mistakes or simplifications, and you could put here corrections without any problem.![]()
Far more, I'm about changing completely the sequence for the Plantagenêt Empire (the revolts are totally unhistorical, and rebel troops are too bad), so Ireland will be soon improved.![]()
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.cyr ****
Duplicate Leader ID '23121', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.abb, Line 7
Duplicate Leader ID '23122', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.abb, Line 19
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.dul ****
Duplicate Leader ID '23141', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.del, Line 7
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.mam ****
Syntax error in object Leader, state <date>, at line 74 char 36, with buffer 'year 1277 } deathdate = { year = 1283 } location'
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for startdate in statement at line 70
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.mor ****
Syntax error in object Leader, state <date>, at line 65 char 39, with buffer '= year = 1358 } rank = 0 movement = 4'
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for deathdate in statement at line 60
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.sav ****
Syntax error in object Leader, state <leader>, at line 165 char 14, with buffer 'VII startdate = { year = 1386 } deathdate = { day = 1 month = june year = 1390} rank = 0 movement = 3 fire = 3 shock = 3 siege = 0 } historicalleader = { id = { type = 6 id = 19294 } category = monarch name = Louis de Savoie-Achaïe startdate = { year = 1392 } deathdate ='
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for startdate,deathdate,rank,movement,fire,shock in event at line 162
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.sud ****
Warning: unlikely token at line 5 char 3 : ': 19381 - 19390 '
Syntax error in object Leader, state <start>, at line 5 char 0, with buffer 'IDs : 19381 - 19390 historicalleader = { id = {'
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Leaders/leaders.tim ****
Syntax error in object Leader, state <date>, at line 12 char 40, with buffer '= year = 1405 } rank = 0 movement = 4'
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for deathdate in statement at line 7
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.ann ****
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for deathdate in statement at line 116
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for deathdate in statement at line 128
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.cas ****
Syntax error in object Monarch, state <date>, at line 309 char 1, with buffer 'day 25 month = december year = 1406 } name ='
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for deathdate in statement at line 301
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.inc ****
Warning: unlikely token at line 78 char 22 : '(queen)
'
Syntax error in object Monarch, state <monarch>, at line 78 char 22, with buffer '(queen) DIP = 4 ADM = 4 MIL = 2 dormant'
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for dip,adm,mil in statement at line 70
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.mor ****
Syntax error in object Monarch, state <date>, at line 115 char 39, with buffer '= year = 1358 } name = Abu'Inan Faris DIP = 7'
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for deathdate in statement at line 112
Syntax error in object Monarch, state <date>, at line 125 char 39, with buffer '= year = 1358 } deathdate = { month = july'
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for startdate in statement at line 123
Syntax error in object Monarch, state <date>, at line 135 char 27, with buffer 'year 1359 } deathdate = { day = 19 month ='
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for startdate in statement at line 133
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.roy ****
Duplicate Monarch ID '16421', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 3
Duplicate Monarch ID '16422', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 19
Duplicate Monarch ID '16423', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 35
Duplicate Monarch ID '16424', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 49
Duplicate Monarch ID '16425', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 63
Duplicate Monarch ID '16426', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 77
Duplicate Monarch ID '16427', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 91
Duplicate Monarch ID '16428', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 105
Duplicate Monarch ID '16429', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 119
Duplicate Monarch ID '16430', first defined in D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.maa, Line 133
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.sco ****
Syntax error in object Monarch, state <date>, at line 297 char 0, with buffer 'day = month = year = 1303 } deathdate = {'
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for startdate in statement at line 293
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.tur ****
Syntax error in object Monarch, state <date>, at line 12 char 22, with buffer 'month march year = 1326 } name = 'Osman I DIP ='
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for deathdate in statement at line 9
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Monarchs/monarchs.u02 ****
Warning: Missing/wrong definition for startdate in statement at line 28
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_brittany.txt ****
Undefined monarch ID '21265', in event 108002 (Line 40)
Undefined monarch ID '21267', in event 108009 (Line 288)
Undefined monarch ID '21267', in event 108010 (Line 320)
Undefined monarch ID '21266', in event 108010 (Line 320)
Undefined monarch ID '21267', in event 108010 (Line 320)
Undefined monarch ID '21268', in event 108010 (Line 320)
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_england.txt ****
Undefined monarch ID '21265', in event 105469 (Line 2246)
Undefined monarch ID '21265', in event 105469 (Line 2246)
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_ghana.txt ****
Undefined monarch ID '21573', in event 106601 (Line 10)
Undefined monarch ID '21574', in event 106601 (Line 10)
Undefined monarch ID '21575', in event 106601 (Line 10)
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_makkura.txt ****
Undefined leader ID '19384', in event 105156 (Line 160)
Undefined leader ID '19383', in event 105156 (Line 160)
**** D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_scotland.txt ****
Undefined monarch ID '19763', in event 106118 (Line 504)
Undefined reference to event ID '108954', in event 114613 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_aleppo.txt, Line 366)
Command action in event '101017' refers to itself (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_ayyubids.txt, Line 491)
Undefined reference to event ID '17603', in event 107605 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_bohemia.txt, Line 134)
Command action in event '107619' refers to itself (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_bohemia.txt, Line 617)
Undefined reference to event ID '106557', in event 106408 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_brabant.txt, Line 209)
Undefined reference to event ID '106559', in event 106408 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_brabant.txt, Line 209)
Undefined reference to event ID '106555', in event 106411 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_brabant.txt, Line 314)
Undefined reference to event ID '105720', in event 108008 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_brittany.txt, Line 240)
Undefined reference to event ID '106213', in event 105467 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_england.txt, Line 2166)
Undefined reference to event ID '106213', in event 105470 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_england.txt, Line 2291)
Undefined reference to event ID '106545', in event 106530 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_gelre.txt, Line 697)
Command action in event '108752' refers to itself (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_georgia.txt, Line 43)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111662 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 404)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111663 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 441)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111664 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 478)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111665 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 521)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111666 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 567)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111667 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 613)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111668 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 659)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111669 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 706)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111670 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 751)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111671 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 796)
Undefined reference to event ID '110456', in event 111672 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_german_col.txt, Line 841)
Command action in event '106601' refers to itself (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_ghana.txt, Line 10)
Undefined reference to event ID '101557', in event 101105 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_granada.txt, Line 151)
Undefined reference to event ID '101556', in event 101132 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_granada.txt, Line 908)
Undefined reference to event ID '106559', in event 103577 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_holland.txt, Line 563)
Undefined reference to event ID '106061', in event 104260 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_italy.txt, Line 275)
Undefined reference to event ID '106060', in event 104261 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_italy.txt, Line 322)
Command action in event '113155' refers to itself (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_lanka.txt, Line 94)
Undefined reference to event ID '101572', in event 100511 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_leon.txt, Line 326)
Undefined reference to event ID '101556', in event 101278 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_morocco.txt, Line 884)
Undefined reference to event ID '101553', in event 102613 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_murcia.txt, Line 412)
Undefined reference to event ID '101555', in event 102617 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_murcia.txt, Line 549)
Undefined reference to event ID '106211', in event 108255 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_papal.txt, Line 110)
Undefined reference to event ID '10397', in event 103298 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_roman.txt, Line 2503)
Command action in event '103220' refers to itself (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_roman_r.txt, Line 390)
Command action in event '103220' refers to itself (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_roman_r.txt, Line 390)
Command action in event '108927' refers to itself (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_rum.txt, Line 927)
Undefined reference to event ID '101178', in event 100166 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_sicily.txt, Line 943)
Undefined reference to event ID '107201', in event 110351 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_silesia.txt, Line 21)
Undefined reference to event ID '104005', in event 105004 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_venice.txt, Line 89)
Undefined reference to event ID '104004', in event 105005 (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_venice.txt, Line 118)
Command action in event '109108' refers to itself (File D:\Eu2\Mongolian\DB\Events/mes_welfen.txt, Line 239)